Why does everyone overdo the bio?

[cvermeulen]

Same can go with bio media for sumps.

Sumps become really efficient when running multiple tanks or just plain old huge tanks. HOBs would not be efficient at that point when looking at incurred purchase costs, maintenance time and wattage.

Oh absolutely, and please don't get me wrong. I have a couple sumps in service myself right now. For large tanks, or particularly multiple tanks, or even for tubs where HOBs and canisters are impractical, a sump is perfect. They are also great in a pinch, when you have a pump, and a tub or a tank and need a filter. My point was that a giant sump with hundreds of dollars worth of media, and an oversized pump is not any better, and in many ways worse for filtration on an average sized, single tank setup when compared to some alternatives.

In terms of energy, an fx5 can sit 6 feet below water level and flow 900gph at 50W. That quietone will be pushing more like 500gph at that head. A sump will waste some energy by it's very design, but the difference doesn't become expensive until you get into larger pumps like the Q1 9000 or 14000. Even then for some people it's worthwhile, but if you're running a 2kgph W/D on your 75gl, it's generally not worth it.

 

[Pharaoh]

Oh absolutely, and please don't get me wrong. I have a couple sumps in service myself right now. For large tanks, or particularly multiple tanks, or even for tubs where HOBs and canisters are impractical, a sump is perfect. They are also great in a pinch, when you have a pump, and a tub or a tank and need a filter. My point was that a giant sump with hundreds of dollars worth of media, and an oversized pump is not any better, and in many ways worse for filtration on an average sized, single tank setup when compared to some alternatives.

In terms of energy, an fx5 can sit 6 feet below water level and flow 900gph at 50W. That quietone will be pushing more like 500gph at that head. A sump will waste some energy by it's very design, but the difference doesn't become expensive until you get into larger pumps like the Q1 9000 or 14000. Even then for some people it's worthwhile, but if you're running a 2kgph W/D on your 75gl, it's generally not worth it.

The FX5 will also drop in gph with having the media installed. something to the tune of 600gph.

I think it boils down to research, knowledge, and understanding.

 

[MadRussian79]

Canisters have the efficiency advantage by being pressurized. The pump in a canister only has to lift the water from your tank water level over the lip and into the tank the rest of the movement is done by gravity. The sump pump has to go from your sump all the way up to the tank, higher head = more work = more energy used. You can do the same with a sump but it requires more work and more cost, sealed sumps can be done but are rarely cost effective. I prefer canisters as they are easier to maintain and set up.

As far as bio media over kill. I tend to use it for surge capacity so loses don't become disasters. Lets take worst case. You feed your fish in the morning and one of your monsters chokes on a feeder/pellet. You now have between 8 and 24 hours (EMT/Fire over nights) in which the rot can ruin the water. Nitrosomonas (Ammonia to Nitrite) doubles every day Nitrobacter (Nitrite to nitrate) doubles every 2 days, both assuming food and room are present. If you have enough room for bacteria to grow then can deal with a ~5 lbs fish dieing (decomp rate depends on surface area to mass ratio) in your 200+ gallon tank and not being removed for 24 hours with only the nitrates rising. Which are far safer for your fish then ammonia or nitrate.Once your colonies hit capacity they stop growing and Ammonia and nitrites will continue rising. I lost a pair of 10-12" tricolors when I was away and no one removed them for 2 days. No Ammonia or Nitrite present in the tank, Nitrates were obviously elevated. Trikes died of blunt force trauma against the corner of the tank by either the large flag tail or the armored cat, bent in half .

 

[Lissaspence]

I think it's mainly a lack of knowledge. I didn't realize you could reach a point where no more would grow for lack of waste for it to feed off. Once you say that it makes sense but I never thought about it before.

Also if your making your own sump or w/d there isn't much information I've seen as to how many scrubbies (or what ever you use) to use. Is there a general calculation for this? X amount of surface area per X amount of water? I know that would be very subjective since it depends on the fish you have and many other factors. But if your in doubt than it would be better to over estimate than under estimate, right?

I also think that it's partially a show off factor to some people. It seems like some people get really excited about filtration and try to go as Monster as possible with this as well as their tanks and fish, as if it's a status (mine is bigger than yours) thing.

 

[cvermeulen]

I think it boils down to research, knowledge, and understanding.

I couldn't agree more

 

[cvermeulen]

Canisters have the efficiency advantage by being pressurized. The pump in a canister only has to lift the water from your tank water level over the lip and into the tank the rest of the movement is done by gravity. The sump pump has to go from your sump all the way up to the tank, higher head = more work = more energy used. You can do the same with a sump but it requires more work and more cost, sealed sumps can be done but are rarely cost effective. I prefer canisters as they are easier to maintain and set up.

As far as bio media over kill. I tend to use it for surge capacity so loses don't become disasters. Lets take worst case. You feed your fish in the morning and one of your monsters chokes on a feeder/pellet. You now have between 8 and 24 hours (EMT/Fire over nights) in which the rot can ruin the water. Nitrosomonas (Ammonia to Nitrite) doubles every day Nitrobacter (Nitrite to nitrate) doubles every 2 days, both assuming food and room are present. If you have enough room for bacteria to grow then can deal with a ~5 lbs fish dieing (decomp rate depends on surface area to mass ratio) in your 200+ gallon tank and not being removed for 24 hours with only the nitrates rising. Which are far safer for your fish then ammonia or nitrate.Once your colonies hit capacity they stop growing and Ammonia and nitrites will continue rising. I lost a pair of 10-12" tricolors when I was away and no one removed them for 2 days. No Ammonia or Nitrite present in the tank, Nitrates were obviously elevated. Trikes died of blunt force trauma against the corner of the tank by either the large flag tail or the armored cat, bent in half .

Now that's a point I'm more than willing to concede, although I don't think this is what people have in mind when making excessive bio areas.

One other thing I really don't understand is the need some folks feel for a variety of bio media. I mean if you happen to have a gallon of this and that then fine, but 7 chamber sumps with different media in each?

It's also nice to see someone with a basic understanding of why a canister is (generally) more efficient, but wait till someone asks where the extra energy goes. That was a debate all it's own!

 

[cvermeulen]

I think it's mainly a lack of knowledge. I didn't realize you could reach a point where no more would grow for lack of waste for it to feed off. Once you say that it makes sense but I never thought about it before.

Also if your making your own sump or w/d there isn't much information I've seen as to how many scrubbies (or what ever you use) to use. Is there a general calculation for this? X amount of surface area per X amount of water? I know that would be very subjective since it depends on the fish you have and many other factors. But if your in doubt than it would be better to over estimate than under estimate, right?

I also think that it's partially a show off factor to some people. It seems like some people get really excited about filtration and try to go as Monster as possible with this as well as their tanks and fish, as if it's a status (mine is bigger than yours) thing.

Well that's why I started this discussion, really. Knowledge = good, and debates tend to shake out a lot of misconceptions.

you've listed off the major causes of my initial overbuilding of my filters. (Misinformation, Getting excited about it, and wanting to have the biggest and the best.) Ha-HAA! I can pull off a 20x turnover rate? Sweet! But most people ignore the drawbacks of said overindulgence like having no space in your stand, the noise, the power consumption, and so on.

 

[MadRussian79]

One other thing I really don't understand is the need some folks feel for a variety of bio media. I mean if you happen to have a gallon of this and that then fine, but 7 chamber sumps with different media in each?

This is an older concept though I'm not sure if it's been proven or disproved. That different media attract different species of the genus Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter. Then there is the thought that you can grow denitrifying bacteria (Nitrate to Nitrogen gas) on certain media which as far as I know can't be done unless you oxygen deplete the environment.

In theory if done correctly getting denitrifying bacteria to grow would reduce or remove the need for water changes. I remember hearing myths about it around 15 years ago but no one has been able to show it works in the aquarium. The main methods are, vacuum extraction, boiling, or gas sparging water columns. All are significantly more compliacted then just doing a water change.

 

[Noto]

Now, there are biofilters that will definitely remove nitrates from the water, they just use plants or algae instead of anaerobic bacteria. This seems like a far more sensible approach to me than trying to deoxygenate your tank water, ram it through biomedia, then reoxygenate it.

 

[MadRussian79]

Now, there are biofilters that will definitely remove nitrates from the water, they just use plants or algae instead of anaerobic bacteria. This seems like a far more sensible approach to me than trying to deoxygenate your tank water, ram it through biomedia, then reoxygenate it.

Algal filters require more space, they do when set up right work great. They require more care then a bacterial filter.