HITH lATERAL LINE DISEASE IN CICHLA

[RD.]

Occellaris, Pinima, Temensis ,Intermedia to name a few seem to be very susceptible to Hith Or some form of this !!!! Now Orino ,Kelberi,Mono ,Xingu seem to vertually bullet proof in aquarium setting and even Azul to an extent but not as much

Without some very detailed data to support that statement, it becomes nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

But just for arguments sake let's say your claim is correct. There are many species within the same genus that are found in different environmental conditions. As an example, some corydora prefer very cool water, others very warm - and both have an ideal temp where they do best in the home aquaria. The same "ideal parameters" might hold true for Cichla. As previously stated there is much more than just pH involved, and even tannins, various other natural turpines and chemicals found in indigenous plant matter may not only keep the pH buffered quite low, but in some instances (such as Terminalia catappa aka Almond leaves) some of these various indigenous plant matter are also known to produce antimicrobial activity that suppresses both gram positive & gram negative bacteria. Take those species out of that "protective" environment, and introduce them to paramaters outside their ideal range, and a fish that comes under stress (of any form) is going to be open for invasion from any number of pathogens that it would not normally encounter in the wild.

 

[HULON]

Without some very detailed data to support that statement, it becomes nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

But just for arguments sake let's say your claim is correct. There are many species within the same genus that are found in different environmental conditions. As an example, some corydora prefer very cool water, others very warm - and both have an ideal temp where they do best in the home aquaria. The same "ideal parameters" might hold true for Cichla. As previously stated there is much more than just pH involved, and even tannins, various other natural turpines and chemicals found in indigenous plant matter may not only keep the pH buffered quite low, but in some instances (such as Terminalia catappa aka Almond leaves) some of these various indigenous plant matter are also known to produce antimicrobial activity that suppresses both gram positive & gram negative bacteria. Take those species out of that "protective" environment, and introduce them to paramaters outside their ideal range, and a fish that comes under stress (of any form) is going to be open for invasion from any number of pathogens that it would not normally encounter in the wild.

Absolutly RD i actually have no proof these are just my thoughts and a small group of enthusiests !!!I was hoping with your ties to NLS that maybe we could actually have some real studies done ?????? I really hope so my Passion runs deep with these fish RD!!!!!

 

[RD.]

I've already addressed any nutritional concerns, feed a nutrient rich well balanced diet (sparingly, NOT power feeding) and that solves any potential problems in that area.

Next, keep your water clean, including filters, the less bacteria present the less potential for stress from poor water quality. Ditto to 02 levels ect.

Keep ALL stress levels low, which will keep any major outbreaks of pathogens at bay. (such as S. vortens)

And probably best to keep blackwater fish in blackwater conditions. Lower pH vales, higher tannin etc levels, along with including certain plant matter such as Terminalia catappa that is known to increase antimicrobial activity.

Other than that, not sure what else one can do to avoid conditions that trigger HITH syndrome.

 

[cigars]

I've already addressed any nutritional concerns, feed a nutrient rich well balanced diet (sparingly, NOT power feeding) and that solves any potential problems in that area.

Next, keep your water clean, including filters, the less bacteria present the less potential for stress from poor water quality. Ditto to 02 levels ect.

Keep ALL stress levels low, which will keep any major outbreaks of pathogens at bay. (such as S. vortens)

And probably best to keep blackwater fish in blackwater conditions. Lower pH vales, higher tannin etc levels, along with including certain plant matter such as Terminalia catappa that is known to increase antimicrobial activity.

Other than that, not sure what else one can do to avoid conditions that trigger HITH syndrome.

I just researched a bit on the use of almond leaves in aquaria it seems to provide a lot of health benefits for Amazonian fish, cichlids, etc. If I had a bass with HITH I would give this a try.

 

[Aquanero]

I agree with RD.'s thoughts on this. What needs to be done is to compile a list of the various species of cichla and the water parameters of their natural ranges. From that look at each species and see if any coralation can be drawn between the waters of their natural environment and the insidents of HITH in captivity along with the parameters in which they are being kept. This might then give and indication of weather or not our speculation has any meret. The combination of acidic condtions combined with the antimicrobial properties of the various types of flora may then lead to a causitive effect of an environmental issue as it pertains to the immune system and the long term effects of low level stress.

The inclusion of "feeders" as a staple can lead to thiaminase: http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase.html this can also lead to a compromise of the immune system that will further the susepability of these fish (and others) to HITH. Gut loading with NLS and QT of feeders as well as raising your own will help prevent the direct spread of Hexamita but will not prevent thiaminase from the fish itself. Thiamine is involved in numerous body functions, including nervous system and muscle functioning; the flow of electrolytes in and out of nerve and muscle cells (through ion channels); multiple enzyme processes (via the coenzyme thiamine pyrophosphate); carbohydrate metabolism; and the production of hydrochloric acid (which is necessary for proper digestion). Because there is very little thiamine stored in the body, depletion can occur quickly. I use NLS Thera A+, and never use feeders on any of my fish.

In addition to Metro as an effective cure I have also seen the inclusion of vitamin C aid in the recovery of fish with HITH. IMO if we look at environmental evolution of these species individually we might be able to come up with a common denominator between them and the susepability of different speces from different areas.

 

[gangster]

I love this thread!
Great points made RD and aquanero.
We may be coming up w/ some factual evidence here.

Hugh have you tried incorporating almond leaves in your water to mimick black water conditions?
I wonder if this would help the HITH on your occel clear up....?
WOrth a shot.

 

[Aquanero]

I love this thread!
Great points made RD and aquanero.
We may be coming up w/ some factual evidence here.

Hugh have you tried incorporating almond leaves in your water to mimick black water conditions?
I wonder if this would help the HITH on your occel clear up....?
WOrth a shot.

So are you saying even though I'm not a bass guy I might have actually learned somthing playing with my Angelfish and discus

 

[gangster]

So are you saying even though I'm not a bass guy I might have actually learned somthing playing with my Angelfish and discus

Yup.
DIscus and angels also require a lot of care.
Thanks for all the insight bud

 

[gangster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rArFldeEgA

 

[HULON]

I've already addressed any nutritional concerns, feed a nutrient rich well balanced diet (sparingly, NOT power feeding) and that solves any potential problems in that area.

Next, keep your water clean, including filters, the less bacteria present the less potential for stress from poor water quality. Ditto to 02 levels ect.

Keep ALL stress levels low, which will keep any major outbreaks of pathogens at bay. (such as S. vortens)

And probably best to keep blackwater fish in blackwater conditions. Lower pH vales, higher tannin etc levels, along with including certain plant matter such as Terminalia catappa that is known to increase antimicrobial activity.

Other than that, not sure what else one can do to avoid conditions that trigger HITH syndrome.

I agree with RD.'s thoughts on this. What needs to be done is to compile a list of the various species of cichla and the water parameters of their natural ranges. From that look at each species and see if any coralation can be drawn between the waters of their natural environment and the insidents of HITH in captivity along with the parameters in which they are being kept. This might then give and indication of weather or not our speculation has any meret. The combination of acidic condtions combined with the antimicrobial properties of the various types of flora may then lead to a causitive effect of an environmental issue as it pertains to the immune system and the long term effects of low level stress.

The inclusion of "feeders" as a staple can lead to thiaminase: http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase.html this can also lead to a compromise of the immune system that will further the susepability of these fish (and others) to HITH. Gut loading with NLS and QT of feeders as well as raising your own will help prevent the direct spread of Hexamita but will not prevent thiaminase from the fish itself. Thiamine is involved in numerous body functions, including nervous system and muscle functioning; the flow of electrolytes in and out of nerve and muscle cells (through ion channels); multiple enzyme processes (via the coenzyme thiamine pyrophosphate); carbohydrate metabolism; and the production of hydrochloric acid (which is necessary for proper digestion). Because there is very little thiamine stored in the body, depletion can occur quickly. I use NLS Thera A+, and never use feeders on any of my fish.

In addition to Metro as an effective cure I have also seen the inclusion of vitamin C aid in the recovery of fish with HITH. IMO if we look at environmental evolution of these species individually we might be able to come up with a common denominator between them and the susepability of different speces from different areas.

YEs Yes Ok i have been waiting for the thread to get to this point!!!!NOw !!!!RD and Aquanero This is my systems that i run in a nut shell My 675 1 bead filter 58watt high output uv ,1 moving bed ,1 drip sump 9000 gph This is filtration on my 675 gallon tank..And before ya say it is to much flow believe me i have 1.5 outputs on the system 3000 gph blowing right on them when they swim by you can scarcely see that it is blowing (that's how big the fish are!!!!)And finally in closing i feed all of these fish pre measured amounts of high quality prepaired foods Now What do you guys think?????? and do not spare my feelings RD and Aquanero if i am doing something blatingly wrong let me know OH!!!!!!!! i almost forgot in this system i have well over 200 pounds of driftwood for tannins minerals and such thank you very much Hugh!!!!!!