Why are these being sold????

[Stanzzzz7]

Frank, do you think pima should be stocked in local fish stores just like any other fish and in the same quantity?
If so can you give you reasons, I just can't understand why you would defend such a thing.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

advocating banning but then say they support banning in the next post. So which is it?

I'm for banning the sale in lfs, especially in cold climate countries like mine. I do think they should be legal to order for those with the facility to home them. Never said any different.

 

[Gourami Swami]

I was in a LFS in Maryland last week, and in one of their many crowded 15 gallon tanks, to my surprise I saw a baby (6-7") pima.

I am of the opinion that you should need a permit for arpaima, arowana, pacu, red tail cats, iridescent sharks... any fish that grows larger than about 18".
I think the rampant abuse and neglect of these fish is a real problem, and unless regulations are placed on purchasing them, it won't be addressed. The one-in-a-million customer who can actually house a pima, if they really want one, will be willing to apply for a permit. Very small price to pay for saving the lives of all the poor fish which are sold to inadequate homes.

Hell, I would be willing to file a permit for a neon tetra if they wanted me to. I personally think the animals' welfare should come first, and filling out a little paperwork, paying a small fee, waiting a short amount of time, are all insignificant inconveniences when weighed against the amount of fish that are neglected and abused daily.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

I was in a LFS in Maryland last week, and in one of their many crowded 15 gallon tanks, to my surprise I saw a baby (6-7") pima.

I am of the opinion that you should need a permit for arpaima, arowana, pacu, red tail cats, iridescent sharks... any fish that grows larger than about 18".
I think the rampant abuse and neglect of these fish is a real problem, and unless regulations are placed on purchasing them, it won't be addressed. The one-in-a-million customer who can actually house a pima, if they really want one, will be willing to apply for a permit. Very small price to pay for saving the lives of all the poor fish which are sold to inadequate homes.

Hell, I would be willing to file a permit for a neon tetra if they wanted me to. I personally think the animals' welfare should come first, and filling out a little paperwork, paying a small fee, waiting a short amount of time, are all insignificant inconveniences when weighed against the amount of fish that are neglected and abused daily.

I agree with this gourami 100%

 

[PYRU]

J jaws7777


I used to deal with all of the major specialty fish shops, here in my Province, and many others from coast to coast. While any one of those shops could source me a pima, the cost to order 1 juvie pima on a SA order would have been very cost prohibitive. One can't just walk in a shop & say "order me an Arapaima gigas" Those in the know will know how and where to get them, but it will be costly, and there could be a pre-order wait of weeks or months, and dumb ass kids won't be able to get one on an impulse buy. That is a key point, because we already know from invasive species that we can't stop stupid - but maybe, just maybe, we can slow it down.

And as already stated - here in Canada this species is NOT a click away, it requires a CITES permit for a starter, and a vendor willing to order them in. I don't currently know of a single online vendor that has these in stock & ready to ship, in Canada. Even if they did, it's going to be airport to airport, not always a logistically possible thing for a hobbyist, in Canada, especially in the dead of winter. For me, today that would require a 5 hour round trip in -42F.




Ummm, yeah. Did you miss that part??? The dime a dozen comment was in reference to Jeff's comment about the multitude of O's and bettas being mass produced by shops and home breeders. They aren't.

Ok so what makes this any worse than...

 

[Stanzzzz7]

Ok so what makes this any worse than...

View attachment 1359586 View attachment 1359587 View attachment 1359588 View attachment 1359589 View attachment 1359590 View attachment 1359591 View attachment 1359592 View attachment 1359593 View attachment 1359594

Nothing

 

[PYRU]

I'm for banning the sale in lfs, especially in cold climate countries like mine. I do think they should be legal to order for those with the facility to home them. Never said any different.

I think warm weather areas would be of more importance. Atleast in the cold theres no threat from releasing into the wild.

Which opens up another can of worms. The road the hell is paved with good intentions.

Its like my divorce decree if I open it up over one issue then the whole things gets opened up for review

 

[RD.]

Hello; The "dime a dozen " sort of thing is the point. In the quest for new phenotype variations of both species breeders are doing a lot of selective breeding trying for that new look. In the process at least two things occur. One is they cull a lot of mistakes while the other is they wind up with a lot of more common looking fry. That means there are way too many bettas and young Oscars available for the number of suitable aquariums around to give them "forever " homes. So bettas and Oscars are common.

While I cannot say from experience about bettas and Oscars, I can say about angel cichlids. I wound up with a breeding pair of angles back a few years ago. I raised a small number of fry to decent size ( maybe 75 all told). I was able to trade most of them to two area fish shops. I gave a few to a friend and kept five of the runts and slightly deformed. In fact if the runts ever pair off I will try to see if their offspring come out small or grow to regular size.

My apologies, Jeff. Perhaps I failed to understand your point?

Mine was that O's and bettas are a dime a dozen because they are commonly stocked by LFS, supplied via wholesale vendors. Not from breeding programs. The only online vendors I know of bettas, buy their fish wholesale from Thailand, they do not breed anything. There must not be way too many as you surmise, as they keep buying more from wholesale vendors to replenish their inventory. Same with most bread & butter fish.


J jaws7777 - that was me being civil. Does the truth hurt? You can attempt to steer this discussion in any direction that you like, and I can steer it in any direction that I like. IMHO, the reality is the same mindless twits that have created the invasisve species mess, have the exact same mindset as someone that orders a pima, when all they have to house it is a 180 gallon. Same mentality at work, in the end the fish suffers, and/or the environment. That's just a simple fact.

 

[RD.]

I think warm weather areas would be of more importance. Atleast in the cold theres no threat from releasing into the wild.

Of course there is, along with that warm water tropical fish, any disease or pathogens found in that hobbyists system, has now been released in to the wild. Most releases take place in warmer months, not the dead of winter, so one also has to wonder how many smaller fish would die, before the tropical monster fish dies from the cold.

 

[jaws7777]

Hardly anyone has a 180 or bigger. So if you open up the issue with pima then you open up Pandoras box for a wide variety of fish that we love. Pima are just such a small percentage is the juice really worth the squeeze?

Bingo

Frank, do you think pima should be stocked in local fish stores just like any other fish and in the same quantity?
If so can you give you reasons, I just can't understand why you would defend such a thing.

Can you explain how labeling them as order only fish or how not having them stocked on an lfs helps your cause ?

Ive asked this a few times man.


What i feel is irrelevant in terms of right or wrong. Id rather they werent sold. But i couldnt advocate for them and exclude the thousand of other fish that meet much worse ends. At the end of the day these fish are not as widely available as you guys are making them out to be.

I was in a LFS in Maryland last week, and in one of their many crowded 15 gallon tanks, to my surprise I saw a baby (6-7") pima.

I am of the opinion that you should need a permit for arpaima, arowana, pacu, red tail cats, iridescent sharks... any fish that grows larger than about 18".
I think the rampant abuse and neglect of these fish is a real problem, and unless regulations are placed on purchasing them, it won't be addressed. The one-in-a-million customer who can actually house a pima, if they really want one, will be willing to apply for a permit. Very small price to pay for saving the lives of all the poor fish which are sold to inadequate homes.

Hell, I would be willing to file a permit for a neon tetra if they wanted me to. I personally think the animals' welfare should come first, and filling out a little paperwork, paying a small fee, waiting a short amount of time, are all insignificant inconveniences when weighed against the amount of fish that are neglected and abused daily.

At least your willing to admit that you wouldnt mind putting in the same effort for a neon tetra as you would a prima. To me this is not hypocritical.
My argument is only where does it end ?

I agree with this gourami 100%

but you didnt agree that oscars and smaller fish were on the same level as mentioned earlier.