Tank Cycle Phobia?

[LBDave]

GOOD MORNING,
First of all this is my first fishless cycle.
I'm cycling a new tank so I can move some fish out of my primary tank. It's crowded (oscars, pbass). I want some feedback. I really want to make sure this goes well.

I started the fishless cycle on 6/8/19. Moved sponge, some bio balls and filter pad (very dirty) from tank 1 to new tank. Added liquid ammonia (Dr. Tims). But it took so many drops I lost count. I have a Seneye and then realized that it only reads up to .499ppm ammonia! So I did a water change 6/10/19. Brought down to about .399. Added Fluval BB and some Stability.
On Thurs. 6/13/18 I got some Fritz ammonium chloride (love this stuff. Pricey but so easy to use!). Brought ammonia up to about 4 ppm. Added more Fluval BB and Stability. Next day after 24 hours ammonia down to .156 ppm. Tested and Nitrites about 10 with the API kit. Nitrates about 20.
Saturday night (6/15/19) I did an 80% water change. Didn't touch the sump water but I removed the filter pad. I did squeeze it out over the bio balls. I added ammonia and took it up to about 3+ppm.
Sunday ammonia got down to about .119 at night.
This early morning ammonia is .075. (Right now/ 2 hours later it is 0.055). Tested for Nitrites and it looked close to 0. Tested for Nitrates and looked about 10-20.
So right now I am monitoring, waiting for it to get to 0 are close to. Maybe in range of 0 - .010. It seems when the ammonia is getting this low the ammonia removal process slows down a lot. (This is what I have seen the last week). Then I will bring ammonia up to 3ppm to keep the bacteria thriving. And I will wait until it goes back to zero or near zero and test for Nitrites and Nitrates again.

I plan to do this until Friday night and then change out water. Test. Make sure ammonia and nitites zero. Add fish Saturday or Sunday. What do you think? Maybe towards end of week don't add so much ammonia? Ok to add fish this weekend or keep cycling for another week? Right now it appears it is taking 1.5 -2 days to get ammonia down to zero. Is that ok?

BTW, I have seen no cloudy blooms like I did when I cycled a tank with 3 silver dollars. I have seen some white film on the glass.

 

[Gourami Swami]

Can I ask why you are doing a fishless cycle if you have an established tank? Much easier to just transfer bacterial colonies from your established tank and add fish right away.
But since you are doing it this way- so far tank has been cycling for 10 days. Aroundf 30 days is the time it usually will take for the bacterial colonies to grow to the point of the tank being "cycled". There are two types of bacteria you need, the first kind eats ammonia, and the second kind eats nitrites. when your tank can bring 1.0 ppm of ammonia to 0ppm in 24 hours, you probably have enough of the first kind. When this is happens, and you are ALSO able to test at 0 nitrites when the ammonia has been converted, and you can see nitrates steadily rising, that is when I would add fish. We can't really tell you if that will be Saturday or next week or next month, only your water tests can tell you.

 

[LBDave]

Can I ask why you are doing a fishless cycle if you have an established tank? Much easier to just transfer bacterial colonies from your established tank and add fish right away.
But since you are doing it this way- so far tank has been cycling for 10 days. Aroundf 30 days is the time it usually will take for the bacterial colonies to grow to the point of the tank being "cycled". There are two types of bacteria you need, the first kind eats ammonia, and the second kind eats nitrites. when your tank can bring 1.0 ppm of ammonia to 0ppm in 24 hours, you probably have enough of the first kind. When this is happens, and you are ALSO able to test at 0 nitrites when the ammonia has been converted, and you can see nitrates steadily rising, that is when I would add fish. We can't really tell you if that will be Saturday or next week or next month, only your water tests can tell you.

GS
I have read A LOT. Nitrosomas, Nitrospira, Nitrobacter. (Not saying I know everything). Only time I have ever hear it's safe to move fish into a new tank without cycling is if you move the entire filter. If you read my post you will see that I moved media from the established tank. That helps but it doesn't solve. That may change the "30 days" to 10 or 15 days.
So I guess your answer is that the tank must go from 3ppm to 0 in 24 hours? You have experienced this? That Nitites must also be zero is a given.
I think I will also test the ammonia API kit on the primary tank. I wonder if it indicates zero when the seneye indicates say 0.05?

 

[Gourami Swami]

GS
I have read A LOT. Nitrosomas, Nitrospira, Nitrobacter. (Not saying I know everything). Only time I have ever hear it's safe to move fish into a new tank without cycling is if you move the entire filter. If you read my post you will see that I moved media from the established tank. That helps but it doesn't solve. That may change the "30 days" to 10 or 15 days.
So I guess your answer is that the tank must go from 3ppm to 0 in 24 hours? You have experienced this? That Nitites must also be zero is a given.
I think I will also test the ammonia API kit on the primary tank. I wonder if it indicates zero when the seneye indicates say 0.05?

I've moved over filter media to new tanks plenty of times without needing to wait 10 to 15 (or any) days before adding fish. Can move the entire filter, or just a good bit of media to seed the new filter. Moving over more bacteria is better as long as there will be enough fish to support it. I believe that you have read a lot, you know the right words haha. At this point I must admit I don't really test my own water much, sometimes will even use this method to set up a new tank without testing. I've just got a feel for how much bacteria I would probably need for the load of fish and volume of water in the new tank. And I keep an eye on the fish to watch for stress.
There will be a period when you first add the fish in the tank where the bacterial colonies adjust to the levels of ammonia that the fish produce, so it's definitely possible to have a mini-cycle, or a week or two where there are slight ammonia or nitrites. So I wouldn't cycle a tank like this with particularly sensitive fish, or small fry, anything like that. But with most fish I Have found it's fine to use them as the ammonia source right as you transfer the media into the tank.

To answer your question- 1ppm to 0ppm ammonia in 24 hours, with 0 nitrites and rising nitrates, is usually when i would add fish in a fishless cycle.

 

[LBDave]

Thanks buddy. Now your talk'in! Sorry if I seemed irritated. Just want to do this right.

 

[LBDave]

Thanks buddy. Now your talk'in! Sorry if I seemed irritated. Just want to do this right.

It's the "Duanes" in me!

 

[duanes]

I hadn't cycled a tank in over 25 years, because I just move some media, and some decor (like logs or rocks) to the new tank.
It got even easier when I started using sumps, because I usually have 3-5 tanks per sump. With a sump, I don't need to even move media, just put the tank on an established sump line. In that situation all water is mixed, the bacteria in the sump do most of the work.
One needs to be careful telling this to new aquarists, because many don't realize that a sump like this has been established for years, and has the ability to almost instantly adjust to changing situation, whereas a tank only set up a few months may not yet be capable.
And in my case when in the states, I 'd usually only add two or three semi adult fish to a tank at a time, or if they are juvies, might only be 6 or 8 juvies to a 75 gallon or larger tank, attached to a 50 gallon sump, in line with 300-500 gallons of other very well established tanks.
Large volumes of water with lots of decor and seasoned substrate are often tolerant, but the smaller the tank, (especially almost bare ones) say 75 gallons or under, can be quite fragile.

 

[LBDave]

I hadn't cycled a tank in over 25 years, because I just move some media, and some decor (like logs or rocks) to the new tank.
It got even easier when I started using sumps, because I usually have 3-5 tanks per sump. With a sump, I don't need to even move media, just put the tank on an established sump line. In that situation all water is mixed, the bacteria in the sump do most of the work.
One needs to be careful telling this to new aquarists, because many don't realize that a sump like this has been established for years, and has the ability to almost instantly adjust to changing situation, whereas a tank only set up a few months may not yet be capable.
And in my case when in the states, I 'd usually only add two or three semi adult fish to a tank at a time, or unless they are juvies, might only be 6 or 8 juvies to a 75 gallon or larger tank, attached to a 50 gallon sump, in line with 300-500 gallons of other very well established tanks.
Large volumes of water with lots of decor and seasoned substrate are often tolerant, but the smaller the tank, (especially almost bare ones) say 75 gallons or under, can be quite fragile.

Thanks for the input. I'll think about this. I don't have sumps piped together but I did put some dirty old media in from the other tanks sump. From what I have read, adding all this ammonia and putting the media in should help grow lots of bacteria. Want to make sure the Nitrobacter are well populated. Maybe I will move one large pbass in first. I'll think about it. Just catching the fish and moving them is going to be hard on them and the community at tank 1. Things to ponder...

When I cycled the first tank with a few silver dollars I found I didn't really cycle it. Loaded up with fish and sort of started a new cycle. Not enough bacteria I assume. Result - Lots of store bought BB, water changes and Prime. I want to avoid this.

 

[Zanzag]

My two recent tank set ups were kind of emergency jobs to stop agression. For the first i took bioballs and floss from my 55 for the second i stole a bag of media from my turtles tank. Neither tank had any cycling issues but both have always been lightly stocked.

 

[LBDave]

My two recent tank set ups were kind of emergency jobs to stop agression. For the first i took bioballs and floss from my 55 for the second i stole a bag of media from my turtles tank. Neither tank had any cycling issues but both have always been lightly stocked.

Thanks Nick! I think I'm worrying too much. Ammonia is now down to 0.035. It's been about 1.5 days since I had it up to 4ppm. Going to get it to 3ppm and watch it go down. I just want to make sure the bacteria thrives. To do that I need an ammonia source (add ammonia then transition to fish ammonia).
I'll get her down to close to 0 and then do a thorough water change and add the fish. Probably all of them.
Will be checking Nitrates and Nitrites daily with API. Seneye is always watching the ammonia.

Probably Friday I will just start in am with 1ppm ammonia as GS suggested.