A ban on all rays, would anyone support it?

[amazongirl]

Another thing to consider is cost. If an animal is worth more, the entire chain of people who work with the animal will make more of an effort to ensure that it arrives safely at it's destination because if they do not it affects them more financially. I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I bet a fewer animals died in transport with the latest round of black rays out of Brazil than did before there was a ban.

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

 

[Marius]

Lets hear some feelings on banning the importation of wild caught freshwater stingrays. Through discussion with some active industry oldies this weekend, it came up. The ban would be based on the high mortality of these guys. For example, they often don't live so we probably should not be importing them. This is not a normal reason for the USFW to step in, but as responsible ray keepers, shouldn't we be considering this? "Teacups" have what, like a 5% chance of living more than 6 months in captivity? Weather this is fault of collector, holder, shipper, wholesaler, retailer, or keeper... the mortality rate is high for all rays.

Come on, seriously?

as a breeder, i feel like this would be amazing cuz it would drive up prices on all rays, but here is one for you.... How expensive would flower rays be there has only been a few places to breed them in captivity

Who bred Schroederi, I thought I'll be the first

I could see quotas and bans on some species, but where there are others that are killed because they are a nusiance why not have them die in our aquarium than on a riverbank somewhere. At least it would provide some income for the locals, airlines, distributers, ect..

60,000+ rays get killed on the Amazon each year, some speculate even more. The yearly quota is a little over 12000, that's a fifth of the ones that actually get killed as they are considered a nuisance, or simply for food.

I agree, this would cause an increase in demand and prices would sky rocket, putting them out of reach for the general population.

General population can stay away from rays, they are more demanding than your average goldfish, and unfortunately people, in general, want more than they can handle ...but artificially driving prices up makes no sense to me.

we can live out them. I guess I just have to consider it myself when thinking about what the "cost" was for the rays that I have. Import 8 flowers ---> 2 live... careless packing methods by shipper.

Than your source sucks, I brought in 20 rays in October, including a whopping Menchacai pair (tiger rays) with disc close to 20" ...came in as clean as a baby's bum, after one changes the diaper. Seriously, if you have close to 80% DOA ...change the stupid shipper.

and who has actually bred flower rays? you mean tiger rays?

I think you need to look bigger picture here. If the reason for a 'ban' is higher mortalities why stingrays and not other fish? How about many herps? animals used for food? where do you draw the line?

u do realize that 90 plus percent of the fish imported into the usa for the aquarium trade will die a premature death dont u???

Do tell, and then the retail stores make money on what ...dead corpses? I won't argue that there's people out there with no regards to the lives of their poor fish, but believe you me I give no business to those people. I go, see a problem, and I will tell them how to easily fix that. Big box stores maybe, idiotically know-it-all retailers maybe, but here's the thing SHOP AROUND, give them 5-6 months and they'll be out of business. If more people go into troubled retailer shops and get disgusted, don't buy, write a letter to the management, animal protection and close down the damn thing.

...but I still think your remark of 90% die off, is a little off, excuse me WAY OFF.

a ban on wild rays, or any wild fish, will reduce awareness for consevation of their natural habitat. temporarily yes their natural populations would gain, but proboably only slightly. after time nobody would care about the need to keep their natural habitat healthy, and ultimately the rays would suffer. tit for tat.

if your looking at it as a monetary issue, eventually the blackmarket would boom for wild/rare rays, again bad for the rays.

a total ban would be detrimental to the hobby, as well as a free for all would.

Not to mention that a lot of the species, due to their importation, have survived in the hobby. Enough to think of all the Victorians and Madagascar species that are still present in the hobby (Kudos to those dedicated breeders and hobbyists who've put in the effort to preserve their existence).

...'nuff said!

it would definitely cut down on mortality rates during shipping, but not for mortality rates due to uneducated fish hobbyists and LFS. There aren't enough serious captive breeders of even motoro's to support the demand for rays.

Not to mention the problem of being a responsible retailer. How many retailers go through the trouble of educating their customers if they seem to be oblivious of the facts?!? I mean people buying Oscars and putting them in 10gal tanks, or retics in 55gal ...without even knowing they need worms, and maintenance ...

...again, let me underline, not all retailers are like that, but then again, once it happens stay away from those retailers. The key here is repeat business, and I appreciate businessmen who go the extra mile for their customers. Look around, see who's worthy of your paycheck, and soon enough there won't be anymore lame fish shop around. <= they will become extinct.

work for a wholesaler in the US and you will see... I do not have hard numbers, just many years in the hobby/trade.


Rareafishinado = yes, you are exactly right, all the imported fish die, most much sooner than if let be in the wild


Ray as ambassador, this is a very good point!

Are you certain about it? Have you any idea of the thousands upon thousands of fish that don't make it to adulthood, as they are on the menu for other fish?

"all the imported fish die, most much sooner than if let be in the wild" ...is a little to generalizing comment for my liking, but if I may, I would like to underline that wholesalers, and retailers in general should put more emphasis on "educating themselves, their employees and their customers". You gotta start somewhere, and as most things in life, one has to have a calling for this "profession" ...I know a kid in Toronto that worked (or still works for Big Al's) that was not afraid to tell his boss when he was wrong ..or the customers. He was giving active feedback, and he was enticing people to learn more about the fish before they would buy them.

...OMG, can anyone read anymore?!? Me and my "big mouth"

imo they should be bred commercially, by license, under academic supervision in their countries of origin. But until there is the political will and more importantly , $$$'s, its not going to happen. Outside breeders could still do their thing. This would guarantee a flow of income to the original country, keep the prices reasonable, guarantee a flow of 'pure' blood rays ( I would make 'no hybridizing for resale' a condition of the license) provide a ton of observable and measurable information about rays for researchers and experimenters, and cut down on the mortality rates for shipped rays.
Technically there is a permanent ban on rays from Brazil, the quotas are exceptions to this ban.

It will happen in the near future. ...those were some heavily grounded points David.

 

[ewurm]

I think there is not enough data on the local populations to assess whether or not they are in danger. More studies are needed, and CITES wants to do a study. They just don't have the financial means to do so right now. Until then, I think the rarer breeds of rays warrant the restrictions, and the known breeders should be first in line to receive them to lower the need for exported rays.

 

[srikamaraja]

We Americans cannot make laws that make scientific sense.

If we banned wild-caught rays, it would turn into a ban upon ALL rays, wild-caught or captive-bred.

Scleropages formosus anyone?

 

[koop171]

banning simply for mortality reasons is not a good idea. think of all the high end stuff we do not know alot about that will end up getting banned for that reason. ATF. Armatus. discus (back in the day) It's simply not enough to warrent a full on ban.

 

[thefishguy7]

If a ban were put in place where would new breeding stock come from? Look how quickly Mike at H20 expanded since the ban lifted!

 

[koop171]

If a ban were put in place where would new breeding stock come from? Look how quickly Mike at H20 expanded since the ban lifted!

good call. but for those like mike who have current stock of rare rays they could basically ask whatever price they wanted.

 

[DavidW]

I think there is not enough data on the local populations to assess whether or not they are in danger. More studies are needed, and CITES wants to do a study. They just don't have the financial means to do so right now. Until then, I think the rarer breeds of rays warrant the restrictions, and the known breeders should be first in line to receive them to lower the need for exported rays.

this is the principle thinking behind the current ban and quotas.

 

[tank125]

Marius - regarding my source, yes, it sucks, pm me a good Columbian source and I will use it. I can get rock solid Tigers out of Peru (don't know if they come from Columbia too?) and Peru motoros, but I have not found a good Columbian shipper.