A little thread on using supplements with rays

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Silent Bob said:
Who says that if as long as your ray takes pellets their is no need for supplements?

I would still add supplements to their diet no matter how big a variety of frozen food they eat.

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So your saying, add it to frozen foods, even if they're on pellets to.

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Oh I see it was this guy.:banghead: And what exactly makes you the "resident guru" of all things our fish should be eaiting or not eating?

RD. said:
There is no need to supplement vitamins/minerals to any decent quality pellet feed, such as NLS. Anyone that tells you otherwise is talking out of their arse. Fish keepers (including ray keepers) have been supplementing raw for many years, with various commercial products (Vitachem, Selcon, etc-etc) - no need for fancy (read overpriced) designer foods that are "supposedly" specifically made for elasmobranchs. What a farce. Mazuri = Purina, a company whose products I personally wouldn't feed to my dogs, cats, fish, or anything else. I posted my thoughts about Mazuri's ray gel food on page 3 of this past discussion.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?392397-Best-Builder-Food-for-rays



And exactly how are these products made specifically made for elasmobranchs? Does someone at Purina reckon they know the exact nutrient requirements of all the various rays kept in captivity? Are you freaking kidding me?

I posted the following in the last nutrient discussion, anyone care to answer this?




I'm not saying that one shouldn't supplement a raw diet, in fact I have recommended just that for many years, but I personally don't believe that one has to use overpriced species/genus specific pills/powders etc to do so. And this isn't about pellets vs raw, it's about nutrients vs nutrients, and science vs science, and not falling prey to marketing hyperbole.
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I think I need to do something.
My rays are doing great. But long term is what I'm worried about.
Frozen foods are good but they have to be missing something.
So I'll try to get supplement vitamin and see what happens.
What about stuffing NLS in frozen food?
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My rays don't die for unexplained reasons,my females are breeding and all my rays are all healthy. I have raised pups until they had their own pups so no need to change my diet and add fancy supplements without actual proven science behind it. All my rays eat pellets and all my rays eat frozen so IMO my rays are getting their proper nutrition. If it isn't broke why change it? I am not sure why people have such a hard time feeding their rays. Mine will even eat algae wafers. Maybe it's WC versus CB thing?
 
Here we go with another trashed thread
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Really, how so?

You're adding a mix of powdered vitamins to your rays diet, good for you. I've been recommending that folks who primarily feed a diet of raw/frozen, supplement with vitamins, for years. This isn't exactly cutting edge stuff.

Having said that, I'm not drinking the Purina cool-aid, and I was asking what I thought were some fairly straightforward questions about the type of nutritional data that is currently available with regards to rays kept in captivity. Not just what these fish eat in the wild, but their actual nutrient requirements in captivity. I would think that those who are supplementing their rays diets with vitamin/mineral mixes would want to know this as well.

So far Matt is the only person to touch upon anything in this area of captive ray dietary requirements.

From what I have seen with benthic elasmos is that the two most over looked components are idodine and thiamine. Usually, rays (and benthic sharks) will have a diet high in those two due to eating of prey with an exoskeleton of some type that are higher in concentration of both.
Lack of iodine in the diet is directly tied to formation of goiters in elasmobranchs. It's seen in rays and a lot of the carpet sharks (bamboos and nurse species specifically). Low thiamine can lead to heart issues and lessen brain function (or open the door for other neurological issues).
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Low thiamine can not only be a risk when feeding certain fresh/frozen foods, but even more if one is feeding foods that contain thiaminase. For anyone not familar the term, thiaminase is an enzyme that destroys the thiamine content in food, even while that food is in the freezer. Certainly something that anyone feeding frozen foods should be aware of, and another reason why I encourage those who feed frozen to feed their frozen fish items within 30 days, or less.

The need for extra iodine is a necessity with a number of freshwater species of fish, not just rays. Many of the fish found in the Rift Lakes require an ample amount of iodine in their diet. Several years ago when I was a mod in the health & nutrition folder on another well known fish forum, I helped save a fellow members N. venustus that appeared to be possibly suffering from a goiter issue. I have no idea what he was feeding, but in that particular case an iodine supplement (added to the water) did in fact reverse the large growth in its throat, and save the fish. Most people on that forum had never heard of such a thing, including the owner. I'm guessing outside of Matt, most here haven't either.

But these conditions/deficiencies are easily avoided if one is feeding a well balanced diet, be it fresh/frozen, or a prepared diet that contains quality raw ingredients, and some basic commercial vitamin premixes. Keep in mind that not all nutrients are 100% bioavailable to a fish, so if/when possible its best to get these nutrients from the actual raw ingredients, not just a vitamin pill. As an example, commercial foods that use ingredients such as krill, kelp, & seaweed (algae meal) in sufficient quantity will provide enough iodine to keep your fish completely goiter free. Ditto to thiamine content, most prepared foods will contain an ample amount of B1 in their raw ingredients, those are then topped off via a commercial vitamin premix as a safety net for those species that my require additional supplementation.

Adding even more vitamins/minerals to a quality prepared food makes absolutely no sense.

Excess vitamins in the diet of fish can also lead to hypervitamintosis, a condition that is fairly well documented in commercial aquaculture.



The reality is none of this is an exact science. I can't say what the exact nutrient requirements of a ray kept in captivity is anymoe than anyone else can. As in most fish we can only ballpark certain known nutrient requirements, and the rest comes from practice and an experienced eye. As the science expands & becomes more defined, hopefully we adjust where needed.



And what exactly makes you the "resident guru" of all things our fish should be eaiting or not eating?
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I think the bigger question should be, why all the hostility? I'm not holding a gun to anyones head, or telling anyone how or what they should be feeding their rays.
 
I forgot to mention something I can say with certainty. Stingrays and other fish will grow bigger and looker nicer on a pellet diet. The higher the quality of the pellets the better the results. I will leave the science to the food makers and trust they will supply my fish with whatever they need.
 
So is that it? Case closed? I see great points on both sides... Alot of good information here. Anyone else with experience or an opinion care to add?

Zoodiver I would also like to read those notes if you ever get the chance to put them on here.
 
SHARK13 said:
So is that it? Case closed? I see great points on both sides... Alot of good information here. Anyone else with experience or an opinion care to add?

Zoodiver I would also like to read those notes if you ever get the chance to put them on here.
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Hopefully you can get others to respond. I stopped caring about this thread.

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