AC fans vs. all others

[LD50]

well said.

the only reason bubble wands provide any oxygen at all to your tank is because of the surface agitation, however, being that your filter is already plenty agitated, the bubbles are not providing anything further.

By proof I mean actually measured, repeated and documented results...unfortunately I don’t have a team of 15 chemist, microbiologist and a lab with full kit at my disposal to prove a HOB filter theory. As for this little gem of information “the only reason bubble wands provide any oxygen at all to your tank is because of the surface agitation, however, being that your filter is already plenty agitated, the bubbles are not providing anything further” LOL. O2 is a soluble gas...it will diffuse through direct interaction with H20, ever watch a bubble from a scuba diver rise to the surface? it shrinks! CO2 is water soluble a well, how do you think a CO2 diffuser works? Yea your right, most of it comes from surface movement but it still difuses directly into water. Also what about the direct contact between the bubbles and the bio media? Would there not be on site exchange? Oh well your probably right man, 8L/min of air over substrate pro probably didn’t provide one extra bit of O2 to the BB.

 

[bitteraspects]

By proof I mean actually measured, repeated and documented results...unfortunately I don’t have a team of 15 chemist, microbiologist and a lab with full kit at my disposal to prove a HOB filter theory. As for this little gem of information “the only reason bubble wands provide any oxygen at all to your tank is because of the surface agitation, however, being that your filter is already plenty agitated, the bubbles are not providing anything further” LOL. O2 is a soluble gas...it will diffuse through direct interaction with H20, ever watch a bubble from a scuba diver rise to the surface? it shrinks! CO2 is water soluble a well, how do you think a CO2 diffuser works? Yea your right, most of it comes from surface movement but it still difuses directly into water. Also what about the direct contact between the bubbles and the bio media? Would there not be on site exchange? Oh well your probably right man, 8L/min of air over substrate pro probably didn’t provide one extra bit of O2 to the BB.

scuba divers are also hundreds of feet below the surface. 02 might diffuse slightly with prolonged contact, but not in the 6 inches from the bottom of the media chamber to the surface. why do you think aquascapers incorporate bubble ladders or ceramic/glass diffusers (microbubbles) into their co2 systems? if you had super fine bubbles (like the ones created by a glass diffuser), you might raise the o2 level. but the bubbles that come out of a wand or even wooden diffuser (which offers finer bubbles) would not make a difference at all. and even then, the diffused o2 would make little to no, noticeable difference in ammonia conversion.

 

[LD50]

scuba divers are also hundreds of feet below the surface. 02 might diffuse slightly with prolonged contact, but not in the 6 inches from the bottom of the media chamber to the surface. why do you think aquascapers incorporate bubble ladders or ceramic/glass diffusers (microbubbles) into their co2 systems? if you had super fine bubbles (like the ones created by a glass diffuser), you might raise the o2 level. but the bubbles that come out of a wand or even wooden diffuser (which offers finer bubbles) would not make a difference at all. and even then, the diffused o2 would make little to no, noticeable difference in ammonia conversion.

Hundreds of feet? really? apparetly you dont dive, you can see the diffusion effect in 20ft of water. I understand the principals behind ladders and bell diffusers, its an extreemly efficent way to use your bottled gas that you pay for. A micro bubble is used b/c it only has to travle a short distance before that itty volume of air is completly diffused, but a big bubble will still diffuse at the same rate.

Ok, no more urination contest because I’m not a physicist that specialized in fluid dynamics, I’m a microbiology student. So how about an experiment? You have placed enough doubt in my mind that I’m genuinely curious to see the effects if any, of air being added to the filter and try to measure that difference. I just happen to have an emp 400 and a 40g breeder in my shed and here is what I have in mind.

Given a standard Marineland emperor 400, new bio wheels with a measured volume of substrate pro in each of the two chambers we will see how long it takes to cycle a 40 gallon bare bottom tank with a maintained concentration of ammonia. I will record all water parameters and maintain a set concentration of ammonia in the water via testing in the morning as well as in the evenings with a Tetra testing kit. See how long it takes the filter to cycle.

Once cycle is complete I will break everything down, and everything gets a scrub with an over night bleach soak. New bio wheels and the same measured amount of new substrate pro, same concentration of ammonia, same setup location, water parameters etc. Except this time I will run 4L/min of air into the bottom of each chamber and see how long it takes to cycle. Sound like a good way to measure the effectiveness of the different filter set ups? I’m curious to put an off the shelf standard AC110 to the test as well.

 

[sushiray]

AC + canisters rule!

 

[OscarMaster]

right now im running an ac110 and a Rena xp4 on my 150G and its doin great! anyone else use a rena xp4?

 

[Dane]

AC is the only way to go for a HOB. I have 3 AC500s (the old version of the AC110) that have been running for about 6 years straight. I have not replaced a thing in them either and have sand in one of the tanks (it has 2 ACs on it). The part I don't get is that I only paid $33-$35 each for my ACs when I bought them. I was kind of surprised when I priced them the other day.

 

[packer43064]

Emperor for me. I'll never buy a AC, just don't like them and that's a good enough reason for me. I like my Bio wheels!

 

[TheCanuck]

Hundreds of feet? really? apparetly you dont dive, you can see the diffusion effect in 20ft of water. I understand the principals behind ladders and bell diffusers, its an extreemly efficent way to use your bottled gas that you pay for. A micro bubble is used b/c it only has to travle a short distance before that itty volume of air is completly diffused, but a big bubble will still diffuse at the same rate.

Ok, no more urination contest because I’m not a physicist that specialized in fluid dynamics, I’m a microbiology student. So how about an experiment? You have placed enough doubt in my mind that I’m genuinely curious to see the effects if any, of air being added to the filter and try to measure that difference. I just happen to have an emp 400 and a 40g breeder in my shed and here is what I have in mind.

Given a standard Marineland emperor 400, new bio wheels with a measured volume of substrate pro in each of the two chambers we will see how long it takes to cycle a 40 gallon bare bottom tank with a maintained concentration of ammonia. I will record all water parameters and maintain a set concentration of ammonia in the water via testing in the morning as well as in the evenings with a Tetra testing kit. See how long it takes the filter to cycle.

Once cycle is complete I will break everything down, and everything gets a scrub with an over night bleach soak. New bio wheels and the same measured amount of new substrate pro, same concentration of ammonia, same setup location, water parameters etc. Except this time I will run 4L/min of air into the bottom of each chamber and see how long it takes to cycle. Sound like a good way to measure the effectiveness of the different filter set ups? I’m curious to put an off the shelf standard AC110 to the test as well.

But isnt substrate pro a submerged bio material? Why wouldnt you atleast use a bio ball or scrubbie that would actually be good for oxygenated BB? Also this still doesnt change the fact that you can fit 5x the amount of substrate pro in an ac110 with this same methood. Even if it does work , this experiment would be more effective in a AC110. Though i am curious to the results.

 

[bitteraspects]

Also this still doesnt change the fact that you can fit 5x the amount of substrate pro in an ac110 with this same methood.

exactly.

 

[LD50]

But isnt substrate pro a submerged bio material? Why wouldnt you atleast use a bio ball or scrubbie that would actually be good for oxygenated BB? Also this still doesnt change the fact that you can fit 5x the amount of substrate pro in an ac110 with this same methood. Even if it does work , this experiment would be more effective in a AC110. Though i am curious to the results.

Ok, bio balls/scrubbies vs substrate pro. Both will work just fine in wet/dry applications as your growing the same bacteria. The extra O2 just helps up cellular resparation thus upping the metabolism of the BB which means they can consume NH3 faster, as well as reproduce faster. The substrate pro just gives a much larger surface area in a smaller package than bio balls or scrubbies which is great for canisters or in this case HOB's where your working with limited space. As far as the AC having space for 5x the ammount of substrate thats super but its way overkill. I say this because BB is grown in direct perportion to the ammount of waste (food for bb) in the tank, not how much media you have. So unless you have some absurd stock like 15 adult oscars in a 75, the extra media in an AC is just that, extra.