ACA Convention and New Hybrid Classes
- Thread starter Mr.Firemouth
- Start date
Well put, Andrew!
There are two underlying mis-perceptions that fuel the "hybrid / wild" debate:
1) That flowerhorns and other hybrid cichlids, themselves, are the principal threat to conservation in the wild or in the hobby. In reality, irresponsible behavior by fishkeepers and vendors is the threat....no matter whether wild, line, bred, or hybrid cichlids.l
2) That flowerhorn keepers and traditional cichlid-keepers have little or nothing in common. In reality, many people who keep flowerhorns also keep wild-type fish...and many people who keep wild-type fish also keep "fancy" cichlids, whether they be (technically) hybrids or fish line bred to be aethetically pleasing.
...So in reality, the focus of the ACA should be pro-responsible fish-keeping and breeding (and NOT anti-flowerhorn) and should seek to include those who keep flowerhorns and other hybrids as fellow cichlidiots...vs. casting them as pariahs.
Seems pretty simple to me.
There are two underlying mis-perceptions that fuel the "hybrid / wild" debate:
1) That flowerhorns and other hybrid cichlids, themselves, are the principal threat to conservation in the wild or in the hobby. In reality, irresponsible behavior by fishkeepers and vendors is the threat....no matter whether wild, line, bred, or hybrid cichlids.l
2) That flowerhorn keepers and traditional cichlid-keepers have little or nothing in common. In reality, many people who keep flowerhorns also keep wild-type fish...and many people who keep wild-type fish also keep "fancy" cichlids, whether they be (technically) hybrids or fish line bred to be aethetically pleasing.
...So in reality, the focus of the ACA should be pro-responsible fish-keeping and breeding (and NOT anti-flowerhorn) and should seek to include those who keep flowerhorns and other hybrids as fellow cichlidiots...vs. casting them as pariahs.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Mr.Firemouth;2686758; said:
no offense Mr. Firemouth, but this shows a lack of knowledge of flowerhorn. What you say may be true of the crappy LFS home bred FH you see in a lot of LFS outside of california and NYC, but that statement is a slap in the face to the crators of the Golden Monkey (which took like 12 years to perfect), the Tan and King kamfa of Thailand and Vietnam, breeders like ILC, JAPRO, Flowerfish, Rarefish, Happy Breed, etc.. and all the other creators of wonderfull strains of hybrids/ flowerhorns. They spend many years and many generations to create their fish just like you. Discounting their work by statements like that is not cool bro. I'm sure you have some really cool line bred fish you have bred throughout the years, just like true flowerhorn breeders have. Some of the flowerhorn breeders out there have a TON of knowledge about genetics, and breed their fish very similar to the way you do with your line breeds I would suspect. You should look into ILC's indo malaus. They are a pretty consistant solid strain of flowerhorn, that took quite awhile to create, and is still a work in progress. Contact Jonz on some of the flowerhorn forums and he'll send you some pictures I'm sure, he's a really nice guy too. I'd bet that if you sat down with a quality breeder, you would find you have more in common with each other than you think.
Flowerhorn myth #376: Flowerhorns were randomly created in some guy's basement.
Reality: Developing quality strains of flowerhorns took expert hobbyists years of experimentation, selective breeding, and patience to develop.
Reality: Developing quality strains of flowerhorns took expert hobbyists years of experimentation, selective breeding, and patience to develop.
VittleKing;2704515; said:
I apologize. I am not trying to disrespect anyone or their work. You made a valid point about it being a work in progress and that are a few strains.
The problem I have is compared to the Livebearer and Betta communities, information is shared freely and encouraged. In the hybrid community information is guarded for the most part and what is mostly discussed is random hybrids. Just look at the titles in this forum. I have said time and again that the hybrid hobby needs organization, standards, and protocols to give others the tools they need to make the hobby grow in the right direction.
This IMO(the random crosses) is caused by people either not having the space to set up species only tanks, or deliberately crossing 2 species of cichlids, or from not understanding what is happening and allowing the hybrid cross to continue. Is this bad? Well that answer seems to be what all the fuss is about.
There also seems to be a massive confusion with the word hybrid and FH.
If indeed the FH hobby can evolve to a more sustainable and sophisticated level of science where the average hobbyist could find info easily about how to breed FH's for specific traits and colors that would be very cool. However, the hybrid debate is much bigger than just FH. It is all the cheap mixed African Cichlids at PetsMart or the random hybrids on Ebay being be sold as true African Cichlids.(I know, irresponsible fishkeepers) But as long as their is a market for such things there is a problem developing that will continue. There just seems to be more and more ads on forums and Ebay/Aquabid about hybrids for sale(not FH's).
This is what really worries people who want to buy captive raised wild type fish. How do I know the fish I am buying will be what is pictured in the books or resembles the fish in the wild? Why does that not concern anyone here? Don't you want to be able to also get wildtype fish in the future without wondering if they are or not? You said we have things in common, isn't this something(random crosses and mislabeled fish) you would want NOT to see also?
Mr.Firemouth;2705308; said:
There are many guides on how to Create your own fish.
What it means to be a true breeder : http://www.flowerhorncraze.com/Means-True-Breeder-t34773.html
Making SRT : http://www.flowerhorncraze.com/Making-Srt-t595.html
Secret to Breeding Flowerhorn; giving full credit to member NYCFHNUTTT : http://flowerhornrusforum.com/topic/105235/1/
What makes a good breeder : http://flowerhornrusforum.com/topic/105107/1/
How to outcross quality strains : http://flowerhornrusforum.com/topic/107237/1/
And I bet you there are much more, but those are basically the only two forums I browse.
Rich, I agree that it makes sense to differente between INTENTIONAL hybrids like Flowerhorns, OB Peacocks, Parrots, etc. and RANDOM hybrids as the result of lazy or incorrect labeling, accidental cross-breeding, or other one-off acts resulting from irresponsible stocking.
Unfortunately, many "purists" lump all of them together as "bad".... and lump highly skilled flowerhorn breeders in with MFK thread #2,345 on "my convict bred with a X".
"Mixed africans", which from my experience are mostly composed of a variety of common "pure" species like red zebras (Metraclima estherae), Nimbochromis venustus, and others, foster irresponsible care and breeding of cichlids: many in the batch can and do hybridize: on purpose or otherwise.
Discouraging such irresponsible practices by wholesalers, vendors, and hobbyists should be a focus of the ACA...as well as educating its members that there are responsible people (and practices) in the hybrid/flowerhorn community.
Unfortunately, many "purists" lump all of them together as "bad".... and lump highly skilled flowerhorn breeders in with MFK thread #2,345 on "my convict bred with a X".
"Mixed africans", which from my experience are mostly composed of a variety of common "pure" species like red zebras (Metraclima estherae), Nimbochromis venustus, and others, foster irresponsible care and breeding of cichlids: many in the batch can and do hybridize: on purpose or otherwise.
Discouraging such irresponsible practices by wholesalers, vendors, and hobbyists should be a focus of the ACA...as well as educating its members that there are responsible people (and practices) in the hybrid/flowerhorn community.
Well I have a "basic" hybrid project right now. Male synspillum and female blood parrot. I plan on line breeding several generations to try and get somehing like a rainbow king, is that "bad" or "irresoncable"?? After all that is how FH started out right? I have traded them to LFS and make sure they sell them as what they are, I call them Syn X KKP when I give them to other hobbiests, there is even a member here that can vouch to that too. What a lot of people don't realize, the cichlid crossses you see here, for some part, are part of a long term project. Some are not, but some are.
