Armatus ID? Still Black (Hydrolycus wallacei)

[furcifer158]

Get a setailed side shot of the lateral line scale count. It's 95 with wallacei and over 100 with Armatus. That'll settle it.

I'll try to get some detailed shots.. hard to photograph. I'm in the middle of a water change so I can try to get better pics tomorrow
C Chicxulub I sent you some pics that are pretty close up. Let me know what you need me to do or the kind of shot you want and I will try and get it.

 

[jlnguyen74]

Lol, I love how skeptical you guys are.

The differences between this fish and a normal armatus are greater than an armatus and a tatauaia. Surely if we can accept that tats are different based on similar traits, it's not a stretch to believe this?

Given in-person access to this fish with my camera, I have no doubt in my mind that I could prove this beyond any shadow of a doubt. *shrug*

Skeptical? Just two years ago, a yellow fin/tail scomb is wallacei to you. Now, a dark Armatus is a wallacei to you.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/hydrolycus-cf-scomberoides-acre-wallacei.418483/

 

[furcifer158]

Teeth on the fish in question is not relatively small. Armatus replaces its teeth rapidly, so it's not quite possible to judge the teeth of 2 different Armatus. One could have new teeth while the other's teeth is about to fall off. If you go back to post #60, their teeth look the same to me

The teeth have never been larger than the army's. I still can't say its 100% Wallacei but doesn't the teeth come in bigger when they shed the old ones? These have not been getting any bigger while the fish has. I also have to feed the Wallacei twice what I feed the Armatus so that the Armatus does not out grow it.

 

[Chicxulub]

Skeptical? Just two years ago, a yellow fin/tail scomb is wallacei to you. Now, a dark Armatus is a wallacei to you.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/hydrolycus-cf-scomberoides-acre-wallacei.418483/

How about you actually throw some facts out there to contribute to the conversation?

Contrary to what you seem to think, your opinion isn't a 'fact'.

I am 100% in favor of discussion with board members. In these discussions, I have conceded my point MANY times in the past when someone has made a better point. I'll do the same here if someone can convince me. But until someone convinces me, I WILL defend my standpoint.

It's called "having a conversation".

So, do you actually have anything to add to the conversation or not?

PS- I'm still not convinced that other fish isn't wallacei.



EDIT-

I cannot access the paper in which H. wallacei was described. I can't even find it through my school's library. I did however find these pages, which apparently were written by someone who COULD read the paper.

Armatus- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-giant.html
Tatauaia- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-tatauaia.html
Scomberoides- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-scomberoides.html
Wallacei- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-wallacei.html

Based on the morphology of the fish in question and the traits which we can compare, these data supports the hypothesis that the fish in question is H. wallacei. There is only one species that is listed as having black fins and a dark body, which is what the fish in question shows.



EDIT 2- jlnguyen74 please explain to me why this 'black armatus' has stopped growing at 8", when furcifer158 's real armatus is dramaticaly outpacing it in growth? Odd, I thought armies would blow right past the 8" mark. Even if it's not wallacei, this means that it is likely tatauaia or scomberoides.

 

[jlnguyen74]

How about you actually throw some facts out there to contribute to the conversation?

Contrary to what you seem to think, your opinion isn't a 'fact'.

Scomberoides- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-scomberoides.html
Wallacei- http://www.acuteangling.com/Payara/payara-wallacei.html

Based on the morphology of the fish in question and the traits which we can compare, these data supports the hypothesis that the fish in question is H. wallacei. There is only one species that is listed as having black fins and a dark body, which is what the fish in question shows.



EDIT 2- jlnguyen74 please explain to me why this 'black armatus' has stopped growing at 8", when furcifer158 's real armatus is dramaticaly outpacing it in growth? Odd, I thought armies would blow right past the 8" mark. Even if it's not wallacei, this means that it is likely tatauaia or scomberoides.

Fact? Has any fact provided through all these pages up to this point, except that 2 years ago you called a fish that looked like a scomb a wallacei, and now you call a fish that looks like an Armatus a wallacei. Is that not a fact? Is that an opinion?

I have not stated or thought that my opinion is fact. However, you seem to think your opinion is fact. Is that why you get all offensive when you were called out?

There is no specie in the four links you posted is listed as having black fins and dark body. You just twisted the words to justify your "hypothesis"
From the link you posted, wallacei is described, "body and head coloration dark, more silvery on anterior portion of body."

I don't know how did you come up with the idea that this black Armatus has stopped growing at 8" mark, and wanted me to explain it to you. Why don't you go back and read post #7, when OP stated that it's 14"

Wonder if the color will last once its over 20" only about 14" or so now

 

[jlnguyen74]

The teeth have never been larger than the army's. I still can't say its 100% Wallacei but doesn't the teeth come in bigger when they shed the old ones? These have not been getting any bigger while the fish has. I also have to feed the Wallacei twice what I feed the Armatus so that the Armatus does not out grow it.

Care to explain how can you feed the wallacei twice what you feed the Armatus with both fish are in the same tank? If they are indeed Armatus and wallacei, Armatus will grow out wallacei, doesn't matter how you feed them. As the matter of FACT, the Armatus will injure or kill/eat the wallacei if you don't feed it often

 

[furcifer158]

I thought it was around that size at first. I put a tape to the glass tonight and its no where close to 14" Its not even 10" yet. I have never been very good at guessing the size of a fish. Sure I'm not the only one. I told C Chicxulub in a PM of the few facts about this fish and the growth rate and feedings they were getting. That's how he knew the correct size

 

[furcifer158]

Care to explain how can you feed the wallacei twice what you feed the Armatus with both fish are in the same tank? If they are indeed Armatus and wallacei, Armatus will grow out wallacei, doesn't matter how you feed them. As the matter of FACT, the Armatus will injure or kill/eat the wallacei if you don't feed it often

I spot feed them, thats how. Pretty simple, I hold the tilapia on one side of the tank while the Armatus swims with the silver dollars. Drop the food above the Wallacei and he gets it. Its not really that complicated.
The Armatus has always been more of the schooling fish over the Wallacei. It keeps to the left of the tank while the Armatus schools with the silver dollars. The wallacei is more aggressive to food as well so makes the spot feedings easier.
If you have ever keep piranhas there personalities are like if the Armatus was juvenile red belly and the Wallacei like an adult Rhom.

 

[Chicxulub]

Fact? Has any fact provided through all these pages up to this point, except that 2 years ago you called a fish that looked like a scomb a wallacei, and now you call a fish that looks like an Armatus a wallacei. Is that not a fact? Is that an opinion?

The fish looks nothing like an armatus. If anything, if it's not a wallacei, it'd be a tat.

I have not stated or thought that my opinion is fact. However, you seem to think your opinion is fact. Is that why you get all offensive when you were called out?

"Calling me out" is precisely the problem. It didn't do a damn thing to further the knowledge in the thread, all it was was a strawman to attempt to discredit me. Even if that other fish is a scomb, so what? I like pushing envelopes and trying to get everyone to think. In many instances, it has paid off for the community. Why don't you take some of that knowledge you obviously possess and contribute it? I'm sure that you absolutely have the ability to add cogent points in this discussion, but you almost never do. I'd have not said a damn thing to you had you not decided to roll up here and do that. What were you hoping to accomplish with your classic straw man?

There is no specie in the four links you posted is listed as having black fins and dark body. You just twisted the words to justify your "hypothesis"
From the link you posted, wallacei is described, "body and head coloration dark, more silvery on anterior portion of body."

I don't know how did you come up with the idea that this black Armatus has stopped growing at 8" mark, and wanted me to explain it to you. Why don't you go back and read post #7, when OP stated that it's 14"

You sure about that?

 

[UnstoppableJayD]

Debate is a great thing and the life blood of forums like this... C Chicxulub makes some great points in trying to identify this fish as wallacei- and since it is not a common fish most of it has to be done through some serious detective work ... that being said there can be tons of things the fish could be other then a wallacei... Asian keepers do lot's of things to manipulate the colors of fish through there environment (wtt etc). it could also be a natural occurring color morph of one of the more common Payara (color morphs as we all know are very common)... there is no definitive right answer here without extensive investigation..... and we all know what opinions are like... Interesting thread... and would love to see some wallacei brought in to compare this fish to. how about it fugupuff or B bigguapote ????