Best pellet mix up.

[RD.]

Bro, you best learn to read, or stay away from nutrient studies. lol

Ascorbic Acid has a half life of 14-35 days, NOT L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate. Check the lab analysis in the link below;
http://www.labdiet.com/pdf/shelf-5025.pdf

after 270 days vitamin c was still present at 79% of the original level

Also, at the inclusion rates used in fish food (less than 1% of the total formula), ash content isn't going to have any real bearing on anything.

Do you think I just make this stuff up as I go along?
You gotta have more faith.

NLS uses a whole LOT more than just fruit & vegetable extracts, that's just the tip of a rather large iceberg, but unfortunately much of this "stuff" can only be discussed in general, as it falls under proprietary information.

 

[hamfist]

Blimey, I go out for an evening, have a kip and come back to find this thread has exploded !

Some very interesting points raised. I think a key point which has not been specifically verbalised is that many of us are actually rather skeptical that one manufacturer has really got it's formula bang on, supplying 100% of a fish's nutritional needs. It is clearly possible, but the natural skeptic in me hates to actually accept that someone might have done it !
RD, you clearly rave about NLS (which formulas exactly ?) and state you have used it exclusively for years, with outstanding results .... I have seen your pics, and can vouch for that ! You certainly are a great advert for it. I actually went and ordered some yesterday too !!

Another thing is that I actually enjoy giving my fish a variety. Whether they enjoy it or not, who knows, but I do ! They seem to thrive on it, so I'm not desperate to change my system as it is working well for me.
To a certain extent I also find that feeding a variety of foods increases interesting food-searching behaviours in the fish, which I enjoy watching. I find that fish fed on floating food exclusively, for example, usually rummage around in the substrate far less than fish who are genuinely used to finding some of their food there.

I would also like to pick up on Fishing Out's point of whether we should be keeping our dried fish foods in the fridge to retin micro-nutrient value for longer. RD ... have any view on the matter ?

 

[RD.]

I think a key point which has not been specifically verbalised is that many of us are actually rather skeptical that one manufacturer has really got it's formula bang on, supplying 100% of a fish's nutritional needs. It is clearly possible, but the natural skeptic in me hates to actually accept that someone might have done it !

But of course, when it comes to commercial foods this has always been the logic behind feeding a "wide variety".

The requirement of feeding fish a wide variety of food is perhaps one of the largest misconceptions in fish keeping. Aquarium raised fish do not demand a variety of commercial/frozen/fresh foods; but they do require a highly nutritional & highly digestible diet that contains a wide variety of ingredients.


Which is precisely why I previously asked for someone to explain what Hikari Gold adds in nutrient value, that your other food/foods don't contain?

It was a rhetorical question, I didn't expect any detailed responses, as I already knew that no one could give me one based on logic, or science.
It's good to be sceptical, I'm the greatest sceptic of them all.

I'm certainly not suggesting that my way is the only way to get the job done, but at least I know exactly what is going into my fish each day, and there's a solid track record of results by many fish keepers world-wide, both fresh & marine keepers. No guess work, no mixing brands willy-nilly in the hopes that each formula will fill the nutritional gaps of the last formula.

If you are happy with the results that you see in your fish, fair enough, I'm not looking to convert anyone in this discussion, I was simply attempting to show you the flaws in your logic.

Had we been having this discussion 25 or 30 years ago, I'd be in total agreement with you, no question about it as most commercial foods back in the day were pretty sketchy when it came to nutrient value. But things have come a long ways since those times, and today even extremely nutrient sensitive species such as Moorish Idol can be kept successfully in captivity, IF one chooses their diet correctly. Even today many marine keepers will argue that these fish are doomed in captivity, and if they follow the logic from 25 yrs ago (feeding a wide variety of frozen mysis, shrimp, nori, etc) they would be correct. Most will only survive for a few months in captivity, if even.

Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration.

At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo (the creator of New Life Spectrum) lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point he had kept them thriving in captivity for 5+ years.

Something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago.

I'm not saying that one can't or even shouldn't supplement with other foods, but IMO choosing the staple part of your fishes diet is key to keeping a fish healthy & disease free over the long haul. For myself, I stopped feeding supplements of any kind many years ago, and have never looked back.

BTW - I feed my FH (as well as most larger cichlids) sinking 3mm pellets, and they do spend a certain amount of time each day looking for hidden morsels in the substrate.

I would also like to pick up on Fishing Out's point of whether we should be keeping our dried fish foods in the fridge to retin micro-nutrient value for longer. RD ... have any view on the matter ?

For long term storage, best to keep food in a cool, dry, dark environment, but I have never stored food in the fridge & really don't recommend it unless you are feeding food that is high in fat & moisture content. Most commercial fish foods are designed to last 2-3 years in the original unopened container. The analysis linked to above on L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate was at values of 72F (22 C) and 50% relative humidity.

Just keep in mind that a commercial food that has been stored for 2 yrs, could potentially have greater nutrient values than one that is fresh off of the conveyor belt.


HTH

 

[hamfist]

THanks RD. Great info.

 

[BIG_ONE]

Wow, a few days away from MFK and so much I have missed. Ehh, either way...just keep in mind that regardless what you feed. If the fish has the potential then it will grow its potential. You can even feed a whole bunch of feeder guppies and the worms you dig in the back yard for your flowerhorn. And grow out to be one of the top notch flowerhorn out there. You can feed all these super high quality food to a flowerhorn and you get the same result. Overall, I believe certain fish food falls into certain personal liking. To each of their own, they are all great foods.
Regardless what you feed them, water quality/aggression/temperature falls into a higher step than what the food itself does to your flowerhorn. In my opinion, I believe mixing different brand of food together does more harm to your fish than good.

 

[RD.]

Ehh, either way...just keep in mind that regardless what you feed. If the fish has the potential then it will grow its potential.

Try telling that to someone who maintains a multi million dollar bio-secure aquaculture facility.

If what you stated was true, we should all just go out & grab a 50lb bag of trout chow at the local hardware store for $40 & we would all have the healthiest fish on the planet. If only it was that simple. Millions (probably billions) of $$$ have been spent over the past 50 years on research into formulating premium aquatic diets, and while nothing in life is perfect, I find it rather absurd that someone in this day & age would actually believe that no matter what you feed, a fish will reach its full potential if kept in an otherwise optimum environment. (pristine water quality, low stress, etc)
Or that all of this just boils down to personal preference - eenie-meenie-moe?

While it's true that there are many brands of food on the market that will satisfy the nutritional needs of most freshwater fish, it's also becoming more clear with each passing study that many of the health disorders that we see in both freshwater and marine fish are directly related to an improper diet. While certain foods may in fact keep a fish that's kept in a totally non-stress environment, healthy, place that same fish under any type of stress (and there are many forms of stress that can take place in a glass cage) & that same food may fail miserably. The problem lies in the fact that when a fish does become ill, most hobbyists aren't going to be able to pin-point the exact cause, be it a lack of (or excess of) certain vitamins/minerals, amino acids, lipids, or an incorrect balance of these nutrients.

Using vitamin C as an example, while a food that contains 50 mg/kg of vitamin C may be able to maintain a fish in a fairly non-stress environment, 500 mg/kg will ensure that your fish is receiving adequate vit. C even when placed under a significant amount of stress. Most of the research in the area of nutritional disorders has been performed by experts in this field, dedicated researchers with PhD's after their name that have in some cases devoted decades of their life to these studies.

Does it really matter what we feed our fish?

I guess that's up to each individual to decide.

Like most commercial industries, the fish food industry is full of a lot of BS, slick willy marketing, and smoke & mirrors. Such as companies that promote their foods for growing big koks, when we all know that genetics plays the main role in determining a flowerhorns potential kok size.

One needs to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, and then decide how much they are willing to spend on the health & well being of their fish.

 

[BIG_ONE]

Try telling that to someone who maintains a multi million dollar bio-secure aquaculture facility.

If what you stated was true, we should all just go out & grab a 50lb bag of trout chow at the local hardware store for $40 & we would all have the healthiest fish on the planet. If only it was that simple. Millions (probably billions) of $$$ have been spent over the past 50 years on research into formulating premium aquatic diets, and while nothing in life is perfect, I find it rather absurd that someone in this day & age would actually believe that no matter what you feed, a fish will reach its full potential if kept in an otherwise optimum environment. (pristine water quality, low stress, etc)
Or that all of this just boils down to personal preference - eenie-meenie-moe?

While it's true that there are many brands of food on the market that will satisfy the nutritional needs of most freshwater fish, it's also becoming more clear with each passing study that many of the health disorders that we see in both freshwater and marine fish are directly related to an improper diet. While certain foods may in fact keep a fish that's kept in a totally non-stress environment, healthy, place that same fish under any type of stress (and there are many forms of stress that can take place in a glass cage) & that same food may fail miserably. The problem lies in the fact that when a fish does become ill, most hobbyists aren't going to be able to pin-point the exact cause, be it a lack of (or excess of) certain vitamins/minerals, amino acids, lipids, or an incorrect balance of these nutrients.

Using vitamin C as an example, while a food that contains 50 mg/kg of vitamin C may be able to maintain a fish in a fairly non-stress environment, 500 mg/kg will ensure that your fish is receiving adequate vit. C even when placed under a significant amount of stress. Most of the research in the area of nutritional disorders has been performed by experts in this field, dedicated researchers with PhD's after their name that have in some cases devoted decades of their life to these studies.

Does it really matter what we feed our fish?

I guess that's up to each individual to decide.

Like most commercial industries, the fish food industry is full of a lot of BS, slick willy marketing, and smoke & mirrors. Such as companies that promote their foods for growing big koks, when we all know that genetics plays the main role in determining a flowerhorns potential kok size.

One needs to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, and then decide how much they are willing to spend on the health & well being of their fish.

Believe it or not, a buddy of mine feeds a lot of trout pellets from a salmon/trout hatchery to his flowerhorns as a staple(and I have done it with SA/CA cichlids with same result as NLS - and trust me they are super high quality pellets as these fish are being raised to be put on a table). Telling it to a multi-million dollar bio-secure facility or not, makes no difference to me because every single one of them have their own opinion and expertise as of which is necessary. But why not ask all the pros and experts on flowerhorncraze that has been in the hobby for over 10 years and their opinion as does food really make a big difference to their fish. Or does it really all falls onto the genes, water quality, temperature, and food in that EXACT order. Food only covers 5-10% of that certain potential of the fish itself IMO.

 

[RD.]

LOL, I sometimes wonder why I even bother.

Commercial trout farms don't feed "super high quality pellets", for the very reason that you provided - their fish are simply being raised for human consumption - which equates to the fastest growth they can get out of the fish, in the least amount of time possible, for as little cost as humanly possible. Longevity doesn't even come into play. Your buddy & you obviously never had a necropsy performed on any of your fish, or you would know exactly what I am talking about. Excess lipid deposition & necrosis of the liver isn't a very pretty sight when viewed up close & personal, which is typically the result when trout feed is fed to warm water species, such as cichlids.

Same result as NLS? Dream on.

Unless a farm is actually making their own food (and I'm not aware of any that are) they simply can't afford to feed "super high quality pellets", and your suggesting that's what they are doing, just proves how ignorant you are on this subject. The feed costs on a commercial farm can run between 40-70% of their total operating costs - and feeding that type of food would put most farms out of business in less than 6 months.

Experts on flowerhorncraze? I wouldn't use the term expert to describe anyone on that site, let alone experts on fish nutrition.
So what if they have been in the hobby for over 10 yrs, I'm old enough to be the father to most of them, and grandfather to quite a few of them.
10 yrs of keeping fish is hardly a blip on the radar to an old fart like me.

Of course a fishes genes are primary, as is water quality, but that doesn't equate to a fishes diet making up only 5-10% of it's overal health, and/or longevity.

Where do you come up with these asinine ideas, from the so called expert comments on FHcraze?

Unbelievable .........

 

[Chrisplosion]

I still say you should just feed them mayonnaise and call it good.

 

[Fishnthehood]

So NLS would be the best pellet food for my fish? Can I also feed them shrimp pellets as a treat.