Carp/goldfish hybrid

[MN_Rebel]

Parrot cichlids are a classic example of why hybrids shouldn't be made haphazardly. The poor things can't even close their mouths.

MN- goldfish are not hybrids. There are no orange or calico or egg-shaped or double-finned wild fish that the original gibbel carp were crossed with- they were just mutant gibbels. Pure Carrassius auratus. Same for koi- just mutant Cyprinus carpio. I haven't been able to find a definite species ID for the 'Indonesian longfin carp' in the ancestry of the butterfly koi, so I couldn't say whether they should be considered hybrids. Again, many koi breeders are alarmed by the presence of butterfly koi and must try hard to be sure their stocks don't become contaminated.

As for your MN hybrids- you don't know how many generations of stunted, spontaneously aborted, or otherwise unhealthy fish had to be produced before a few vigorous ones made it. And just because there are a lot of them doesn't mean there aren't continuing health problems.

It's true that there are many hybrid strains of aquarium fish, which is a source of frustration for more serious hobbyists- which was one of my original points. However, all the fish you mentioned (I hadn't heard there was much contamination among guppies or cories) involve hybridization between closely-related species within a single genus; common carp and gibbel carp are not that closely related.

You shouldn't have to choose between wild-type or possible hybrids; you should be able to go to the store and buy a comet or lionhead or whatever without worrying that it may be a half-carp that will grow to 24".

That's all I've got. Carry on.

. Im sure the fancy goldfish are hybrids, Its possible other species of smaller carp add to the mixture of goldfish as goldfish have bred for LONG TIME. Actually is that best answer you come with MN hybrids that they have health problems? Nature have a thing or two for these hybrids who have health problems wont last longer...you just dont know how the nature works.

parrot cichlid do fine, they live up to 15 years despited their mouths unable to close, i wont called them poor things. lol.

 

[andyjs]

Lol! i love to see someone went freak out on the hybrid plan for no reason!

I wouldn't call Noto's posts a "freak out" by an means. It sounds much more like an intelligent discussion to me. I can't say the same for yours...

I've never heard of that many petstore fish that are known hybrids. Many of the strange colors and forms of different strains come from genes already present in the fish that were previously "turned off" or hidden by more dominant genes, or mutations of those genes.

As far as hybridizing your normal petstore koi and goldfish, I couldn't care less. They're already low quality mutts, but pure strains of these fish, just like rare breeds of dogs and other domestic species, should be preserved. I feel the same about pure, wild-type lines of other species. This is why I don't agree with wanton, irresponsible hybridization....

 

[andyjs]

. Im sure the fancy goldfish are hybrids, Its possible other species of smaller carp add to the mixture of goldfish as goldfish have bred for LONG TIME. Actually is that best answer you come with MN hybrids that they have health problems? Nature have a thing or two for these hybrids who have health problems wont last longer...you just dont know how the nature works.

parrot cichlid do fine, they live up to 15 years despited their mouths unable to close, i wont called them poor things. lol.

What's the best you can come up with? Telling him he's wrong because he has no proof, but not providing any evidence for your points either? Laughing at others doesn't make your points any more correct...

 

[Noto]

. Im sure the fancy goldfish are hybrids, Its possible other species of smaller carp add to the mixture of goldfish as goldfish have bred for LONG TIME. Actually is that best answer you come with MN hybrids that they have health problems? Nature have a thing or two for these hybrids who have health problems wont last longer...you just dont know how the nature works.

parrot cichlid do fine, they live up to 15 years despited their mouths unable to close, i wont called them poor things. lol.

Thanks for the backup, AndyJS.

MN- I am a biologist, learning how nature works is my life's goal. I am not an expert on hybridization and hybrid fitness by any means, but it is something I am interested in and have read about a good bit.

I don't know that the MN hybrids are unhealthy, any more than you know that they are healthy. I'm just pointing out that hybridization CAN and often DOES result in health problems, and any ethical fishkeeper should take that into consideration.

Three-legged dogs can live long lives too, but I still feel sorry for them. Oranges and apples maybe, but I think the principle is the same.

 

[MN_Rebel]

I wouldn't call Noto's posts a "freak out" by an means. It sounds much more like an intelligent discussion to me.

I've never heard of that many petstore fish that are known hybrids. Many of the strange colors and forms of different strains come from genes already present in the fish that were previously "turned off" or hidden by more dominant genes, or mutations of those genes.

As far as hybridizing your normal petstore koi and goldfish, I couldn't care less. They're already low quality mutts, but pure strains of these fish, just like rare breeds of dogs and other domestic species, should be preserved. I feel the same about pure, wild-type lines of other species. This is why I don't agree with wanton, irresponsible hybridization....

I would agree with you if the OP do irresponsible by dump hybrids in the wild and mislabelled them as pure, but as long as he know what he doing, im sure he do fine. I dont want preserve any rare fancy goldfish or koi, only wild pure stocks as they are already have full of random genetics anyways.

 

[MN_Rebel]

Thanks for the backup, AndyJS.

MN- I am a biologist, learning how nature works is my life's goal. I am not an expert on hybridization and hybrid fitness by any means, but it is something I am interested in and have read about a good bit.

I don't know that the MN hybrids are unhealthy, any more than you know that they are healthy. I'm just pointing out that hybridization CAN and often DOES result in health problems, and any ethical fishkeeper should take that into consideration.

Three-legged dogs can live long lives too, but I still feel sorry for them. Oranges and apples maybe, but I think the principle is the same.

LOL! I am currently student for Fisheries Management, and the officals says the hybrids are much hardy and can survived in low oxygen polluated ponds/lakes in the South Minnesota areas.

Whats up with three legged dogs comment?

 

[Noto]

I was comparing parrot cichlids to three-legged dogs. They may be able to live a long life, but it's still sad.

Say, are you Butch on the NANFA forum?

 

[MN_Rebel]

What's the best I can come up with? Telling him he's wrong because he has no proof, but not providing any evidence for your points either? Laughing at others does make your points any more correct...

LOL! Im sure hes wrong about carp x goldfish hybrids as not all hybrids of different animals have health problem. Some of them yes but it annoying me when they though ALL hybrids have health problems which its not true, just some of them do.

 

[MN_Rebel]

I was comparing parrot cichlids to three-legged dogs. They may be able to live a long life, but it's still sad.

Say, are you Butch on the NANFA forum?

Yes why? Are you stalking me or what?

 

[Noto]

I was just wondering why your English seemed so familiar. I'm Newt over there.

LOL! Im sure hes wrong about carp x goldfish hybrids as not all hybrids of different animals have health problem. Some of them yes but it annoying me when they though ALL hybrids have health problems which its not true, just some of them do.

That's my point- you don't know if your animals will have health problems before breeding them, but you do know it is more likely than if breeding same-species parents. It seems like that should dissuade you from hybridizing just to do it.