ceramic rings

[brianp]

Then why don't any of my large overstocked tanks with no bio media have any detectable ammonia nor nitrites?

I agree to believe random hype from either side of the argument is not wise...

But I've kept a lot of tanks for a lot of years... and when they first came out with bio media I thought... "All the stuff does is give bacteria a place to live, and since none of my tanks have detectable ammonia or nitrite... obviously my tanks have plenty of places for bacteria to live"... 10+ years later, the same holds true...


No matter how you word it... bio media is just a surface area for bacteria to grow on... and no matter what you think, bacteria was growing in ample quantities in aquariums long before bio media was thought of...

Well, they're YOUR tanks and I'm obviously in no position to speculate on their composition. Biomedia is not just surface area for bacteria growth...it is a small volume of tremendous potential surface area within a device which facilitates high rates of water flow through it. This is the essence of a biomedia bed...high water flow through confined high surface area...giving it a reactor-like property. This is hardly "hype".

 

[phillydog1958]

i use bio balls in my fx5 and 405 canisters, rather than fluval's reccomended ceramics due to what i, and many others, perceive to have a larger surface area for bacterial growth.

 

[Toby_H]

are you trying to say that i dont need the ceramic rings?

This topic has been discussed at length in several threads here. Some people share their perspective, such as Brian is sharing. I am not saying he is wrong nor arguing the scientific logic he is using. It is accurate...

Yet there are plenty others who have ample experience keeping perfectly healthy tanks with no bio media what so ever. I'm not saying what Brian is sharing is "wrong", I'm simply saying it is not "needed".


I personally have never and would never buy "bio media"... but when I buy a filter and it comes with bio media, I see no reason not to throw it in. It surely doesn't do me any good in the bottom of a box somewhere...


It boils down to... your tank will grow enough bacteria to oxidize the amount of ammonia your fish create. The quantity of bacteria will be limited by one of three factors: A) food (ammonia/nitrite), B) oxygen or C) surface area... And I personally do not believe that any of us "lack enough surface area" to accommodate enough bacteria...


It is true that we need to have proper water flow to prevent dead spots. But I think it's an assumptuous exaggeration to suggest that "high water flow through confined high surface area" is "needed" for bio filtration. Sure the water needs to move around and come in contact with bacteria which resides on a surface... But following general mechanical filtration suggestions provides this without bio media or special bio filters.

 

[deeda]

are you trying to say that i dont need the ceramic rings?

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. First, what type of filter were you planning on using them in? Second, what brand ceramic rings are they?

The Eheim EhfiMech is a ceramic cylinder-shaped mechanical media used mostly to trap debris as a first layer in the canister filter.

I've seen other ceramic rings touted as performing both bio & mechanical filtration in canister, HOB & wet/dry style filters.

 

[brianp]

There are many things in life that we could, for one reason or another, say are “not needed”. For example, did I really need to spend $30.00/gallon on Weatherbeater Ultra (with polyurethane) for the trim on my house? I’m sure that I could have gone to Walmart and gotten some paint for $12.00/gallon which would have created the same esthetic effect. HOWEVER…I wanted the additional durability, robustness and longevity to counteract the effects of sun and rain so that potential problems like dry rot could be avoided. I don’t really know that I would have seen the effects of dry rot with the Walmart paint, but I logically anticipated what was likely to happen and invoked technology to counteract it. There are many other such examples. Many years ago, I had a friend in Michigan with a 55 gallon tank that he had not siphoned or serviced the filter on for over two years…and yet, the fish appeared healthy, swimming and eating normally. For “Jerry” this lack of maintenance was a badge of honor…a technical accomplishment of some type. There is no question that there are aquariums out there that manifest no apparent symptoms in the absence of “biomedia”, per se. That is beyond dispute. Also, as I recall the previous thread on the necessity for biomedia, my recollection is that there were hob filters with sponge inserts…correct? So, in reality, materials with enhanced surface area were, in fact, being used. To me, the discussion is not whether biomedia is “necessary”, but rather, whether it is logical and wise to invoke a technology which is readily available to avoid potential problems. We already know the following:
1. Aquariums are closed systems teeming with life.
2. Compared to wild environments, aquariums typically have a much higher density of fish per unit volume of water.
3. Bacteria are required to oxidize fish nitrogenous waste.
4. These bacteria require surfaces on which to grow.
5. The aquarium water must be brought into contact with the bacteria in order to achieve oxidation of the nitrogenous waste.

So, the logical extension of this is that you want to maximize surface area and move water over it. Yes, bacteria will grow on the wood, inside of the glass and even on those little ceramic castles that are frequently seen adorning aquariums. And yes, water will circulate within the tank and move over those surfaces, allowing nitrogenous waste to be oxidized. However. the efficiency of nitrogenous waste oxidation in this scenario is minuscule compared to forcefully moving water through a particulate bed filled with materials which have been engineered for high surface area.

 

[Toby_H]

At the end of the day… the purpose of Bio Media is to give bacteria a place to live…


If a mature tank has 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite, it obviously has ample surface area for bacteria to live…


Having thorough circulation in a tank is important for an abundance of reasons, one of which is it allows “each drop” of water to frequently come in contact with a surface that potentially has nitrifying bacteria living on it.


If you need 1,000 square inches of bacteria covered surfaces… and without filtration your system has 15,000 square inches of surface area… and your mechanical filtration doubles that… what possible benefit could be had from adding another 100,000 square inches of surface area?


In a mature tank… the limiting factor of how much bacteria is in your system is the ammonia input… so increasing surface area will not produce more bacteria. It will not improve the effectiveness of the bacteria… it will not do a darn thing but make you feel better and fatten the pockets of the bio media manufacturers…


I am by no means suggesting that we shouldn’t use bio media… but I am suggesting it is not needed. And we should not mislead people into believing it is…


Brian I’m glad you bought the higher quality weather proofing, I think that was an intelligent step. But suggesting that the surface area of bio media is in some way “better surface area” than the over abundance of surface area that already exists in a healthy system is simply not true…

 

[kallmond]

What i'd like to know is how many square inches of developed/mature bacteria is required to handle the whole cycle for 1ppm ammonia.

 

[Bderick67]

And here we go again

are you trying to say that i dont need the ceramic rings?

Yes, chances are you will better off with them.

Once your tank is established you can the remove a small portion on a weekly basis, while frequently testing ammonia levels. Once ammonia is detectable you should put a little back and you will then have achieved the perfect balance of media to bacteria.

The result of this will be that you can sell the extra rings and save yourself a few bucks. Of course if your fish are going to grow or you add more fish then you'll have to start all over again

Or just do like most and use a sensible amount of media in your filter.

Please forgive my sarcastic rant but reading the minimalist approach to bio media over, and over sickens me. Myself and the majority of the fish keeping world feel it necessary to use bio media, no matter how "unnecessary" it may be.

 

[Toby_H]

What i'd like to know is how many square inches of developed/mature bacteria is required to handle the whole cycle for 1ppm ammonia.

You would have to word your question a little different... and even then there are so many variables that would impact the number it would vary situation to situation...

I'm sure there is some "typical range" of how much ammonia the bacteria covering 1 square inch could oxidize in a given time period... but "ppm" is not a volume... it's a ratio...

So 1 ppm in a 1 gallon container is a lot less total volume of ammonia than 1 ppm in a 100 gal tank...

As a general reference... not long ago I cycled a bare bottomed 10 gal tank with nothing but a heater and an airstone (just under 1,000 square inches of surface area) and it could oxidize 5 ppm of ammonia into nitrate in 24 hours...

I've restarted this experiment tank to further explore...

 

[Toby_H]

Please forgive my sarcastic rant but reading the minimalist approach to bio media over, and over sickens me. Myself and the majority of the fish keeping world feel it necessary to use bio media, no matter how "unnecessary" it may be.

And it sickens me when you guys promote the BS hype that the media manufacturers have created...

When you "need" a fraction of the amount of surface area a tank has without bio media... then without bio media you already have several times more than you "need"... so none is already a safe pad...

Until you guys start putting experience behind your hype, I'm giong to keep calling you out on your false exaggerations...