Chicx's Goonch Cats

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who in MFK has a proven "dwarf" goonch?

I thought I did, but as you can see, I may have been wrong in that regard. I'm starting to think my original assessment of this species was right. One thing's for certain though, this fish grows much more slowly than the Indian giants do.

Well, the ones I had with obvious orange fins were all big, so that could be true. However with the ones that I have on hand right now, there may be 2-3 kinds mixed in the group. But...even with the ones I got directly out of India, I kept 3 that I grew from 4" size, and they are 19,22,23" each, the 19" is much lighter colored, and less mottled, and does not hang out with the other ones.

It would make sense if there's 2-3 mixed into that group. Its likely that there are in fact 2-3, maybe even four varieties in SE Asia. We know for certain that there's rutilus and the 'yarrelli', which I feel should be properly called lica. There is also supposedly a dwarf variety, but we can't seem to really nail down what they are, as the issue might be compounded by the similarity between them and the young possible-rutilus.

You mentioned the difference in your Indian goonches. This is no coincidence. In my discussions with Dr. Ng, he indicated to me that there is substantial evidence to support the notion that there are two different species of goonch in India: one that lives in the cool, oxygenated highland streams and a second species that lives in the warmer, less oxygenated rivers of the lowlands. There is anecdotal evidence to support this within the hobby of the marked difference between the looks of fish that are imported and the fact that some thrive in cold water while others die and that some thrive in warm water while others die. I'm inclined to believe in the two species hypothesis myself.

IF there is a warm-water species in India, I wouldn't be surprised to see it in SE Asia as well. That would make it the fourth species from Thailand. Interestingly enough, if my hypothesis pans out, the warmwater Indian variety would be B. yarrelli, so yarrelli would be in Thailand and India after all. In this same scenario, the highland giants would in fact be B. bagarius, as they were originally described a century and a half ago.

The dwarf species being described as B. bagarius has an interesting history as well. Roberts described the dwarf species based on a single specimen from the highlands in northern India. Based on this single specimen, he concluded that there was a dwarf species living in Thailand. Dr. Ng examined the Indian holotype and found it to be morphologically identical to a young specimen of the highland giants.

This would make what we currently call Bagarius yarrelli correctly known as Bagarius bagarius and would render the dwarf species nameless.

All of this stuff ties together in a way that I find fascinating. If I can succeed in getting to the point in my life where I'm pursuing my doctorate, I intend to do my thesis on a revision of Bagarius. That's a long (and I do mean LONG) way off, however; and with being married, having kids and bills and whatnot, it's a lofty goal.

Things like this situation are why I love this hobby. They make me think.
 
Bump.

Edited the title and added a blurb to explain why:

Chicxulub said:
As it has become apparent to me that I got the ID of this fish WAY wrong, I'm updating this original post. As it turns out, this fish is in fact Bagarius rutilus as Estarego8 and I originally supposed. In fact, it is becoming apparent that ALL dwarf goonches may in fact be young rutilus. For reasons expounded on in my difficulty to ID your goonch thread, I'm beginning to suspect that there is a decent chance that there might not even be a proper dwarf goonch species. Guess I shouldn't have doubted myself lol. Also, it's worth noting that I arbitrarily decided that this fish is a female and that her name is Ardat Lili, or Dottie for short. The theory behind that name was that since she was "she" and a devil catfish, she should have the name of a demon. Since at the time of her naming I thought she was a dwarf, I gave her the name of a minor demon, in this case a female who was Lilith's handmaiden.
 
I really like your choices for cohab man! Always loved Jur's and Goonch but stayed away from Goonch because of their size. If there is a such thing as a dwarf I'll definitely scoop one up if I get a chance.

FWIW, rutilus should stay about the size of a tig or juruense. I don't think that these will get much over 2.5' unless you've had it for like twenty years.
 
FWIW, rutilus should stay about the size of a tig or juruense. I don't think that these will get much over 2.5' unless you've had it for like twenty years.
Then I'll definitely be grabbing one up when the opportunity arises, thanks for the info. Gonna ask one more thing if you don't mind, how's the aggression on these guys? Are they strictly predators(if it doesn't fit in my mouth I couldn't care less about other fish) or is it aggressive like Black Devils(Mystus Wyckii). I know some cats get an undeserved rap for aggression(like my Trachycorystes which are total puppy dogs).
 
Then I'll definitely be grabbing one up when the opportunity arises, thanks for the info. Gonna ask one more thing if you don't mind, how's the aggression on these guys? Are they strictly predators(if it doesn't fit in my mouth I couldn't care less about other fish) or is it aggressive like Black Devils(Mystus Wyckii). I know some cats get an undeserved rap for aggression(like my Trachycorystes which are total puppy dogs).

I have Dottie living with several growouts, the smallest of which is about 3.5" and very much bite size. She's about 10-11". She could very easily decimate my growouts if she wanted to, but she plays nice and only eats her pellets. I can't speak if this wonderful cohabability (is that even a word? lol) is a trait of the species or if it's just the personality of my fish. She LOVES to sit right in my 8000 gph of current in the rocks as pictured. She only moves from that spot at "night" while the moon lights are on and only then to get pellets. And even THEN only when the pellets happen to pass within about 6" of her. She has a tiny strike zone. She'll occasionally go get the pellets as in that video earlier in the thread, but that's unusual.

I couldn't ask for a better catfish. I'm very happy with her.
 
I have Dottie living with several growouts, the smallest of which is about 3.5" and very much bite size. She's about 10-11". She could very easily decimate my growouts if she wanted to, but she plays nice and only eats her pellets. I can't speak if this wonderful cohabability (is that even a word? lol) is a trait of the species or if it's just the personality of my fish. She LOVES to sit right in my 8000 gph of current in the rocks as pictured. She only moves from that spot at "night" while the moon lights are on and only then to get pellets. And even THEN only when the pellets happen to pass within about 6" of her. She has a tiny strike zone. She'll occasionally go get the pellets as in that video earlier in the thread, but that's unusual.

I couldn't ask for a better catfish. I'm very happy with her.
Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. I try to do a lot of research on a fish before I buy them and your info. is definitely helping me out. From what I had heard here and there, at very least the sitting on a rock in the current seems to be a preferred habit of theirs. I've been making a hit list of fish and supplies to be fulfilled hopefully in the near future. Just have a potential move in the near future to work out but once everything is settled I'm going to get back in the hobby hardcore. Thanks again man for taking the time to answer my question.
 
If you're interested in goonch cats, read this thread-

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...-correctly-identifying-your-Goonch-(Bagarius)

My explorations of the genus are still ongoing. As of now, I favor a five species breakdown of the genus; three giants, two manageable and no dwarf. Fortunately, one of the manageably sized species (rutilus) appears to be one of the more common.

If you need any help or advice, I'm more than happy to help. :)
 
do you think that gigas could still be a valid species or maybe the true indian highland giants that thrive in the cold fast flowing mountain streams being identified as yarreli are actually gigas and the thai giants that thrive in the warmer waters are either lica or yarreli also where do you think suchus fit int the group not much is discussed about them
 
do you think that gigas could still be a valid species or maybe the true indian highland giants that thrive in the cold fast flowing mountain streams being identified as yarreli are actually gigas and the thai giants that thrive in the warmer waters are either lica or yarreli also where do you think suchus fit int the group not much is discussed about them

Honestly, I doubt it. I feel that gigas is more likely an extinct species as opposed to a currently valid one. IF by some chance it was found highland giants were to match gigas perfectly, it would still be B. bagarius as that is the senior name. This would mean that B. gigas is a junior synonym.

I haven't looked too much into suchus as to how it fits with the other species. My main line of inquiry thus far has been to try to figure out how the species break down. I do know that they are apparently much more of an obligate piscivore than any of the other species. The other species, particularly the Thai varieties, have a large quantity of prawns and other FW inverts in their diet.

I feel that the genus breaks down like so-

B. bagarius- Highland Indian giant
B. yarrelli- Lowland SE Asia species
B. lica- Large but not giant Thai species
B. rutilus- Medium to largish SE Asia species
B. suchus- Medium SE Asia species
B. cf "dwarf"- Tiny Thai species (HIGHLY dubious)

It might be time to revisit this genus soon for a writeup.
 
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