Cichlid Line Bred vs. Hybrid

[Aquamojo]

I'm suggesting the fish are better judges of desirable traits than we are.

For example, here is an F0 Lake Nic convict from my group of several wilds pairs and individuals. To my eye, she's the prettiest con I've ever seen, but she cannot find a mate in a large tank with a dozen males (only three of which are currently paired off). No matter what I think, she is viewed as undesirable
by her own species.

Now, most people would breed ONLY that female. They'd take her and some male (also chosen on a superficial basis) and shove them in a small tank where they'd likely breed. Then they'd circulate the fry as "special" and pretty soon you no longer have convicts that truly represent their wild cousins.

I feel your pain, Chris. Let me help you out. Send her to me.

Nutcase...Line breeding is NOT unavoidable. The wide spectrum of Discus wouldn't have occurred on their own. Man had a hand in those fish.

 

[badisbadis101]

Yes. Consider Convicts. A year ago we only had A. nigrofasciatum...now they're Amatilania nigrofasciatum, coatepeque, kanna & siquia. Cross any of the convict looking fish and you have a hybrid today...but not a year ago. It's a mess.

Agreed. So, i think the question becomes how can we say that line bred fish arent hybrids? I think the answer is that we can't, because they often, and likely, are. This once again brings up the question of how and why the ACA should allow line bred fish, but not hybrids. As i said, it should be both or neither, not one or the other.

cchhcc - that is one of the prettiest convicts i have ever seen. Do you have any other females like her?

 

[cchhcc]

Mo....... I'll trade her with for your zonatus! (hehehe)

Badis, she's the only one...... The other females are nice, but pretty typical in coloration. She's just kind of a mutant!

 

[fishfarm]

I'm suggesting the fish are better judges of desirable traits than we are.

For example, here is an F0 Lake Nic convict from my group of several wilds pairs and individuals. To my eye, she's the prettiest con I've ever seen, but she cannot find a mate in a large tank with a dozen males (only three of which are currently paired off). No matter what I think, she is viewed as undesirable
by her own species.

Now, most people would breed ONLY that female. They'd take her and some male (also chosen on a superficial basis) and shove them in a small tank where they'd likely breed. Then they'd circulate the fry as "special" and pretty soon you no longer have convicts that truly represent their wild cousins.

If you follow Soto's recent revision of Archocentrus that is is now considered A. siquia is is not a convict (A nigrofasitus). Ken

 

[cchhcc]

If you follow Soto's recent revision of Archocentrus that is is now considered A. siquia is is not a convict (A nigrofasitus). Ken

How can you tell by sight? I've heard there are differences, but I don't know them. I thought nigrofasciatus was found in Nicaragua also. According to Juan Miguels's site it is anyway. Siquia's type locality is in Panama, and nigrofasciatus is in Guatemala, but they are both found in Nicaragua......?????..... Strange.

Honestly, I get bored of all this splitting of species. I prefer to just keep them split up by races and collection locales..... I leave the taxonomy to the guys who like that kind of thing (and I still have my reservations about some of their work!).

 

[Toby_H]

Nutcase...Line breeding is NOT unavoidable. The wide spectrum of Discus wouldn't have occurred on their own. Man had a hand in those fish.

My arguement is that due to evolution, any aquarium bred line will be different from their wild counterparts...

You counter saying, line breeding changes the look of a fish, discus for example...

So you agree with me?...

 

[fishfarm]

How can you tell by sight? I've heard there are differences, but I don't know them. I thought nigrofasciatus was found in Nicaragua also. According to Juan Miguels's site it is anyway. Siquia's type locality is in Panama, and nigrofasciatus is in Guatemala, but they are both found in Nicaragua......?????..... Strange.

Honestly, I get bored of all this splitting of species. I prefer to just keep them split up by races and collection locales..... I leave the taxonomy to the guys who like that kind of thing (and I still have my reservations about some of their work!).

Nigrofasiatus is now restricted to Southwestern Mexico, Gutamala, El Salvador and the most western part of Honduras, All the convict type fish in Nicaragua are now considered A. siquia, as long as you keep them separate by collection location you doing the right thing. I have F0 Lago Niaragua convicts too and now list them as A. siquia. Ken

 

[badisbadis101]

Badis, she's the only one...... The other females are nice, but pretty typical in coloration. She's just kind of a mutant!

But a beautiful mutant When you see fish like this, you can almost understand why people would want to line breed something when the natural forms already look great. But i wouldnt line breed her if i were you, just enjoy her as a mutant

 

[snake513]

i dont know much about aca but they wouldnt be doing the fish keeping community any good by excluding flower horns hybrids ect. ALOT of people are into them just a fact. like said by many other people as long as they are not getting put back into natural waters whats the diffrence. God made them a certin way in nature as soon as you take them out of nature and put them in a glass box they change so i dont see the problem with hybrids or line bred fish...

 

[ikevi]

So I am trying figure out what are the largest arguments against hybrids/line breds? You say judging compared to the ideal wild fish. But haven't we already decided what the ideal wild fish is? I mean we already pick the nicest looking one that we catch in the wild and say ok to have a good fish it must have ___ color, __ fins, __ size, whatever. So then with hybrids/line breds don't most of them have some ideal fish? IE flowerhorn Large hump, great color, personality... German reds obviously color, fins.

I am just confused on how we can easily say what an ideal wild caught fish is, but we can't say it about line bred/hybrids. (Heck in my mind it would be easier, the fish can only have what we would concider good traits.)

(Just fyi, I personally am not a breeder of hybrids, I will buy a few males for show tanks but that is it.) It is just that the more I think about this question, the more I come to realize they are here to stay what is the best way to include them in the ACA.