CREATING THE ULTIMATE FILTRATION AND EVOLVING WITH YOUR FISH!!!!!!

[kendragon]

I still think that a vortex chamber, to socks, to moving bed would be the "ideal" setup.

Alan, have you made this filter yet? I'm currently trying to clear a 40,000g pond right now that went green on the owner. They have (6) UV lamps, (6) settling chamber, (2) ultimas, (3) pumps. First problem is they didn't change the UV bulbs for 5years. Second problem is they didn't know the Ultimas had to be backwashed. New bulbs kill that single cell algae but now the water is cloudy from dead algae. The settling chamber are arranged in two sets of three. Water enters the first empty chamber near the bottom and water flows to the next chamber near the top. Second chamber have a bunch of brushes. Third chamber have two layer of matting. Because these chambers are daisy chained together flow rate and pond level is critical. If the pond level is low the last chamber will have barely enough water and the pump will suck air. The surges defeats the whole purpose of settling particles. The pump pulls water from the last chamber and pushes it thru the Ultima. When I set the water high the chamber and Ultima catches a lot of mud. For three weeks now the chambers have to be hosed down killing everything in order the clear the water of particles (5 years worth). All the junk flows onto the filter room floor and down the floor sink. I'm not impressed with what these big chamber catch compared to what comes out of the Ultima. Ultima dumps about three times more mud with less water than the settling chambers. Keep in mind the chambers are great for catching plants and leaves. I will get some pics on Saturday to show the layout. It's week 5 and water is almost clear, atleast you can see fish now.
I had the same idea as you but my field experience tells me it's not efficient. I have several chambers laying around and maybe I should just try it. What do you think?

 

[jlnguyen74]

Filtration is always an interesting topic on this site. I never really understood why. People get too caught up in overall design, direction of flow and choice of media, etc and seem to forget just how easy it is to maintain biological filtration. We're just spoiled with all these cool methods of filtration these days. I remember when I was a kid you either ran an undergravel filter or a hang-on filter. That was it. And the fish lived.

Seriously. Keeping ammonia and nitrite at 0 is such an easy thing to do. You could spend a less than a $100 and build a filter that will support thousands of gallons of water and A LOT of fish. I know because I've done it on koi ponds. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. What we should be debating is NITRATES, and how to reduce them and keep them at near 0 levels. The guys in the cichlid section seem to be on the right path. I think this would be a better discussion.

And when you really look at it, it's about $$$$ and how much you're willing to drop on your setup.

People get too caught up in overall design, because everything was designed for different use. Some media is designed for trickle purpose, some is designed for fully submersed with flow, and some was designed for being tossed in a corner. One obvious example is just a few thread above yours, when one doesn't know the difference between bio-balls and K-1 media, and think just because they're both plastic, then they should have the same use. It's the same with different type and size of fish may require different filter. Did you keep 18in peacock bass with undergravel filter or hang-on filter when you were a kid?
I agree that keeping ammonia and nitrite at 0 is such an easy thing to do. Back home, I hardly spend a penny on a filter. I just do daily water change, with either rain water or untreated tap water. However, that can't be done here, with all the chemical that were used to treat your water.
Yes, it's all about the money. You got to pay in order to play. Just don't get too caught up with the other's money.

I challenge that statement. I don't think it's correct to say that. All filters serve the same basic functions:

1. Remove debris
2. Remove ammonia
3. Remove nitrites

Diseases aren't caused by a "typical filter" as you say. If a filter is keeping ammonia and nitrite at 0, then the filter is not your source of disease or problems. It's lack of maintenance or other water quality issues (parasites, water source, etc). These have nothing to do with the filtration.

But if your system is having trouble keeping ammonia/nitrite at 0 then yes, there is something up with your filtration.

Actually, you're incorrect. Not all filter serve those same basic functions, otherwise there wouldn't be mechanical filter, and a biological filter. All filters may do the same function is to remove debris.
How can a filter keep ammonia/nitrate at 0 without being properly maintainance or setup? Is the filter was used to improve the water quality issue? If so, then how can the filter is not the source of disease or problem?

Yeah that's what I meant, use them for skimming in a completely closed loop system. Yours is different because have both open and closed loop. I don't think you could use an standard built-in overflow box in a closed system. Too much room for the system to swallow air.

Yes, you can use a standard built-in overflow box in a closed loop system. The bulkhead is at the bottom of the overflow box, and the water level inside and outside of the overflow box are at the grid, which is higher than the bulkhead, so it's closed loop.

I respectfully disagree. Yes a filter does those things IF it does the 1st one poorly then you will have problems.

Keep rays. You'll find it's simple to achieve your 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite, with a filter that's so chock full of crap that all of a sudden the bad stuff is being harbored in the bio. Most people find that when the rays get sick cleaning the filter can often fix the problem. IF it does then I'm on board with the idea that the filter could be designed better, cause IF it is then it's MUCH less likely that it will fall prey to procrastination in the maintainance dept.

Technically you may be right, but in the world of happy rays, I am....

The filter must do those 3 things but without it doing that 1st thing properly and efficiently it can still be a working, poorly designed ticking timebomb.

Nobody seems to have been able to explain exactly what's going on in this scenario. If you can, please do, but all I know is it happens and when it does it takes rays.

Yes sir! I agree with you, except the must do 3 things part. As long as the filter doing the first thing properly and efficiently, we can still take care the other thing by different means/methods

 

[HULON]

I think we're saying the same thing The issue with any type of system is adequate pre-filtering and regular maintenance to keep it clean. Because as you say, if you let it turn into a sewage fest, that's when the problems start.

A settling chamber would be neat. But that seems to be only feasible on very large systems. Not your average indoor tank.

You just hit the nail on the head Jose !!!filter socks even in an average system are the WEAK POINT of this type of filtration not only will you have trouble if your lazy but if there is any swing in waste production the socks FAIL contaminating the rest of your system creating stress an finally sick or dead fish!!!!! In the end they are flawed and seriously that is my Opinion !!!!Not only with the always present fear of them filling quikely a sock by nature cannot handle High flow rates what is most guys and gals want to achieve no matter what the tank size 10 gallon or 1000 move the waste away from the fish!!!

 

[jcardona1]

Actually, you're incorrect. Not all filter serve those same basic functions, otherwise there wouldn't be mechanical filter, and a biological filter. All filters may do the same function is to remove debris.
How can a filter keep ammonia/nitrate at 0 without being properly maintainance or setup? Is the filter was used to improve the water quality issue? If so, then how can the filter is not the source of disease or problem?

John you're reading too much in between the lines! Yes there's separate mechanical filters. Yes there's separate biological filters. But you know what I mean. The 3 core functions of a filter are still the same. Remove debris. Remove ammonia. Remove nitrates.

How can a filter keep ammonia and nitrite at 0 when it's not properly maintained or setup? You can't. That's what I've been saying all along. Lack of maintenance and upkeep will cause problems in any tank in any system with any type of filtration. Some filters are simply designed to make maintenance easier. I think that pre-filtering is the most important part of any filter. If you don't do a good job of pre-filtering you'll have a lot more maintenance to do. And if you slack on that maintenance, that's when you'll have problems. That's all I'm saying.

 

[HULON]

You just hit the nail on the head Jose !!!filter socks even in an average system are the WEAK POINT of this type of filtration not only will you have trouble if your lazy but if there is any swing in waste production the socks FAIL contaminating the rest of your system creating stress an finally sick or dead fish!!!!! In the end they are flawed and seriously that is my Opinion !!!!Not only with the always present fear of them filling quikely a sock by nature cannot handle High flow rates what is most guys and gals want to achieve no matter what the tank size 10 gallon or 1000 move the waste away from the fish!!!

Not only that every time you change a sock you lose a percentage of what you just filtered right back into the tank by removing the sock!!!!

 

[jcardona1]

You just hit the nail on the head Jose !!!filter socks even in an average system are the WEAK POINT of this type of filtration not only will you have trouble if your lazy but if there is any swing in waste production the socks FAIL contaminating the rest of your system creating stress an finally sick or dead fish!!!!! In the end they are flawed and seriously that is my Opinion !!!!Not only with the always present fear of them filling quikely a sock by nature cannot handle High flow rates what is most guys and gals want to achieve no matter what the tank size 10 gallon or 1000 move the waste away from the fish!!!

I don't think they are flawed...they're just not meant for every type of setup. They do a great job of catching all the crap within its given micron rating - if you change them out in time and don't let them overflow. But on a giant tank with lots of flow, I probably wouldn't use them either. Koi ponds for example. Using filter socks would be a disaster unless you're changing them out every 20min lol. Just use them in applications where it makes sense. They did the trick on my 400g though.

 

[pacu mom]

John you're reading too much in between the lines! Yes there's separate mechanical filters. Yes there's separate biological filters. But you know what I mean. The 3 core functions of a filter are still the same. Remove debris. Remove ammonia. Remove nitrates.

This is a small typo, right? Remove nitrites?

 

[jcardona1]

This is a small typo, right? Remove nitrites?

Yes nitrites! Sorry

 

[jlnguyen74]

John you're reading too much in between the lines! Yes there's separate mechanical filters. Yes there's separate biological filters. But you know what I mean. The 3 core functions of a filter are still the same. Remove debris. Remove ammonia. Remove nitrates.

How can a filter keep ammonia and nitrite at 0 when it's not properly maintained or setup? You can't. That's what I've been saying all along. Lack of maintenance and upkeep will cause problems in any tank in any system with any type of filtration. Some filters are simply designed to make maintenance easier. I think that pre-filtering is the most important part of any filter. If you don't do a good job of pre-filtering you'll have a lot more maintenance to do. And if you slack on that maintenance, that's when you'll have problems. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, you're correct. I did pick thing apart, and I apologize for that.

 

[jlnguyen74]

I don't think they are flawed...they're just not meant for every type of setup. They do a great job of catching all the crap within its given micron rating - if you change them out in time and don't let them overflow. But on a giant tank with lots of flow, I probably wouldn't use them either. Koi ponds for example. Using filter socks would be a disaster unless you're changing them out every 20min lol. Just use them in applications where it makes sense. They did the trick on my 400g though.

You're correct. IMO, sock was designed for those reefer, with minimal waste, and the system was mainly handled with other components like skimmer, live sands, live rocks. It would work with plant tank, but when we use them in fish system, especially one requires high flow, it's a disaster waiting to happen