"Designer" Cichlids

[dogofwar]

One thing that can be said about all the back and forth banter is that, since all this began, I've noticed a lot more collection points listed on vendor's lists. That can't be bad. A move in the right direction I suppose.

...unless, of course, they're made up...

The words are meaningless (or misleading) unless verifiable in some way.

Matt

 

[dogofwar]

I watched the PPT on the site in Costa Rica... and I have lots of questions.

I looks pretty temporary. When were the pictures taken and does it still exist?

What species are collected there? bred there? How does he transport the fish to/from there? Are the fish shipped from Costa Rica to (the farm in) Florida and then to the end customers...or directly to end customers?

There don't appear to be filters / aeration in the ponds. Especially for the riverine fish, how does he maintain proper oxygen levels? Change water?

Is there flooding? If so what are the implications?

What arrangement does he have with the Costa Rican gov't?

I ask these questions not as a skeptic but because I want to learn more.

Matt

After watching those Power points , Ask yourself what more documentation or evidence do you need ,I highly doubt any other Cichlid vendor on here has those capabilities, I mean tell me if I'm wrong...

 

[Nemesis]

...unless, of course, they're made up...

The words are meaningless (or misleading) unless verifiable in some way.

Matt

Again, the chances of you getting verifiable evidence is minimal. If everyone started demanding this info, then maybe(but I still doubt it). There are only a handful of people who would actually go so far as to demand it. A majority of people just take their vendors word for it. What more can you do unless you are actually the one collecting the fish with you own hands.

Most vendors go to sources in the originating country to get their fish, and never actually touch a net, or see the fish they are purchasing until it arrives on their doorstep.

Is it just fish that come from Central America that are in question? Because there are numerous wild fish from South America have been sold on Aquabid for the longest, and there has never been a question as to whether those are wild. Does it mean that if a country is a little more laxed, then your evidence isn't really necessary? Anyone can just throw on wild and a location. The question that I ask myself is not whether they can provide evidence that their fish are wild, but whether they have the capabilities to actually get these fish. And if they are known for providing what they advertise. Imo, that's the best we can do until we actually get a picture of them pulling your fish out the water. Even then how do you know that is the fish you are being sold?

 

[buddha1200]

If you trust your source than why question them. On the other hand if you don't like what they do or trust a certain vendor or source just don't buy from them,it's as simple as that(business is business)when you go buy a car do you ask the dealer if the screws used to put the car together where made in china or if the glass was made at a certain temperture(NOOOOO)you go on the reputation of the car company. When you buy sneakers do you ask if the strings are 100% cotton(NOOOO).You buy them by the BRAND there is nothing in this world not sold by brand. ALL GLASS,OCEANIC,FLUVAL etc all brands. we may not want to believe it but the world runs on brands,The fish we buy may not be a "brand"but we do buy from who we feel is reliable and trustworthy ,therefore the vendor's we deal with are brands plain and simple(fish farm,tuic,wish list etc are all brands)they advertise like any other company and build their reputation like any other company. Thats the bottom line we all live or lives by brands(hell the computer you are arguing this point on is a brand,unless you have a no name computer)All these high and mighty so called no it alls need to get over themselves,no company ,business,brand etc is going to tell you evry thing you want to know,they may answer a few question. But in the end it's business plain and simple.

 

[balton777]

I'm curious to know how you feel about list their collection location....for example, there's a thread listed "Rio Caquetia Oscars". Is that a no-no too?

 

[flowerpower]

It's more info! Two years from now this thread may be lost in the shuffle but all of the species threads remain as a constant resource for people interested in learning about those particular fishes. More info! More info! More info! Location, who sold it, photos, descriptions of diet and behavior, successes, failures, etc. It's all going to benefit someone down the road IMO.

 

[dogofwar]

I'd be happy to see evidence of recent collection activities at, for example, Laguna Catemaco... not because I want to confirm that the actual fish that I'm buying is the one that I see being pulled out of the water (that's rediculous)...but because I'm interested to know that fish are actually being collected from that place (or Rio Naranja, etc.) in a time frame that makes it possible for there to be wild fish on the market.... vs. being farmed and sold as wild.

I'll admit that my level of skepticism is higher for Central American vs. South American fish because there exists a lot better established infrastructure in SA for collecting and exporting fish than in Central America... where things are a much smaller scale.

If, however, I saw a list that included "wild" and endangered fish from countries in South America that don't allow commercial export or that others haven't collected from in years... I would ask questions. I hope others would as well... both to learn about these habitats / what's involved in collecting them... but also for piece of mind as a potential customer.

There's, of course, a degree of trust involved in all of this. Trust that needs to be earned (for me at least)...

Matt

 

[dogofwar]

I'm curious to know how you feel about list their collection location....for example, there's a thread listed "Rio Caquetia Oscars". Is that a no-no too?

Listing a collection location is a good thing. Among other reasons, it allows people who want to maintain "authentic" Rio Caquetia oscars to only breed them with oscars of the same variant.

Where things get sticky is when people make up names that aren't necessarily helpful in describing the fish's actual geographic location...or just make them up altogether.

Matt

 

[UTEP]

Video and/or photo documentation for every fish that is wild caught is just never going to happen. Just as in the case of Jeff's Wild Umbies. Here was his response when asked where they were collected

Does that mean that they aren't wild, or questionable to be wild? Or could the line in red be the reason why some collectors/distibutors are reluctant to give the details you require? At the end of the day, it's a business for these people. I'm sure they would rather leave the documentaries to the hobbyist. Plus, I doubt that the guys who are actually doing the collecting will be carrying around camera's .

If the people who purchased the Umbies aren't worried, then why should anyone else be?

That is why I only get my fish from Rapps!

 

[UTEP]

I think a lot of people are spoiled! I have dealt with Rapps for over 10 years and Ive pretty much always been happy. You cant expect for a vendor to be perfect all the time-stop with the whining and questioning of the vendors. All fish come small and puny-in the end its up to the owner to make the fish!! I mean do we actually think that Rapps or ** go into South America and fish these fish out-come on-they do the best they can.