Double standards in fishkeeping?

[alexanian]

this doesnt sound like general aquaria discussion.......... to much whining.. its a public advice forum...... if you see its a double standard put it in your memory bank in your knowledge (so you know whats right) and get on with yourself.

WHere do you see whining? Yes it's a public advice forum and this discussion is about the general aquaria advices that are being given.
This is a legit question to which no one can give a straight answer.
How can it culling fry or using feeders be considered as "expert" and proper fishkeeping husbandry while the other is labeled as ignorant fishkeeping?

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

WHere do you see whining? Yes it's a public advice forum and this discussion is about the general aquaria advices that are being given.
This is a legit question to which no one can give a straight answer.
How can it culling fry or using feeders be considered as "expert" and proper fishkeeping husbandry while the other is labeled as ignorant fishkeeping?

see my prior response.

Around me many breeders either turn their "CULL" fish into feeders for their other stock or give them away for free on craigs list. No waste of life. Mutilating an animal in a small tank is wrong, doing it in ignorance is a fair amount more forgivable than intentionally as with people who flush live fish to cull them The largest issue we have is the tone of conversation in threads regarding new or ignorant fish keepers and how it isn't productive.

 

[alexanian]

Don't get me wrong bro, I'm not saying that culling fry or feeders is wrong, but if we go by no waste of life policy then feeding a fish that u can no longer keep to the cats or dogs is just as justified. In other words you can keep any fish in any system as long as you euthanize it when you can't keep it or can't give it away to a proper home. I mean would that be logically reciprocal?

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

Don't get me wrong bro, I'm not saying that culling fry or feeders is wrong, but if we go by no waste of life policy then feeding a fish that u can no longer keep to the cats or dogs is just as justified. In other words you can keep any fish in any system as long as you euthanize it when you can't keep it or can't give it away to a proper home. I mean would that be logically reciprocal?

Fine with me, no one does that though. If you watch craigslist the people who say they do that usually wait until the fish shows signs of deformity from a small tank before they start trying to rehouse it, they don't give the fish to a new home typically they list the animal at a 100-200 dollar asking price for a deformed specimen. Its really bad. I can't really think of someone who actually does right in most of these situations despite their intentions. Once they typically plan to not support a fishes needs through development its all downhill. I have an arowana in a 55 gallon tank and already have its next 2 tanks planned, working on the final adult 2,000 gallon tank after I finish the next 2 in the coming year. I feel like my 6 inch fish is to big for his 55 gallon tank, most people who keep this animal in this situation would see it as adequately housed up until it can't turn around properly. The fish is half as long as the tank is deep but I still feel like he is not able to swim properly. I feel like a arrow should be able to cruise and he can barely do that in his current space. If I was a person getting rid of a fish soon as it outgrew its tank I would get rid of him now, except that I have a 265 in the wings and then I'm gonna setup a 1,000 gallon aquarium after that and a 2,000 after that.

Planning to not support a fish is really a goofy proposition, works for certain fish that grow really slow like clown loaches. I mean I've never had a clown loach reach 6 inches in my possession even if I have them for years they'd be the first fish down when disease would strike back in my amateur days. Fish like oscars, p-bass, arrowana, etc all grow so rapidly that if you don't aim to support the animal you are getting rid of it literally inside of 6 months. If you have an oscar or other south/central cichlid and don't believe they grow fast you are literally doing something wrong. Most of the fish you argue for would be sexually mature inside 12 months and the ones that wouldn't make up for it in pure aggression at that age.

There is a reason this forum is called mfk is because of the tanks as much as the fish. Don't get me wrong there are WAY TOO MANY guys on here with a 2-3 ft arrow in a 3 ft. deep tank

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

Basically the principle fallacy of keeping a fish until it outgrows your setup is unless you research the animal, growth rate, life span etc. and have a legit plan you will almost certainly end up abusing your animal. If you want to just raise animals talk to a pet store and see if they will take your adult specimens, HAVE AN END GAME. Most people that go down the road of, get rid of it when I can't keep it, they don't do any of the above. Its like getting a dog when its a puppy just saying I'll get rid of it when its not cute anymore... Some people make a career out of raising dogs, like seeing eye dogs, breeding, etc. Planning to get rid of an animal is harder than planning to legitimately keep one IMHO. Most other people with that mentality end up contributing to dog fighting, stray animals, animal abuse etc.

If you can't handle the responsibility don't keep it. Saying you'll give away/cull/eat your fish doesn't absolve you of the requirements of keeping the animal and stunting is probably the principle sin of this mentality when keeping monster fish. If keeping an animal for 3-6 months is your thing then fine. Don't think you can honestly keep an Oscar in a 55 for more than a year though if you are stunting is happening followed by warping of the spine, ammonia poisoning, nitrite poisoning, tumors, cysts etc. Just because its still 6 inches doesn't mean it isn't suffering. When an animal is Growing you always need to have the room and filtration and diet to allow for that.

 

[pacu mom]

WHere do you see whining? Yes it's a public advice forum and this discussion is about the general aquaria advices that are being given.
This is a legit question to which no one can give a straight answer.
How can it culling fry or using feeders be considered as "expert" and proper fishkeeping husbandry while the other is labeled as ignorant fishkeeping?

Culling is a quick death. Keeping a fish in a poor environment where it suffers for months and years before it dies, in my mind is much worse. And there are some of us who have no fish to cull and who do not use feeders, and who really just wish the best for everyone else's fish. The bottom line is that it is very difficult to maintain excellent water parameters in a small tank with large fish.

Howse this for a double standard?...There is that crowd of people who seem to get off on giving others a hard time because they feel that a certain tank is not big enough to properly accomodate the fish that are housed in them but then,as soon as someone posts pictures of a so called JDM tank in which a large number of fish are crammed into a tank almost to the point that the fish cannot move freely and these same people start gushing with praises.

When pacu came into my life, I joined a pacu forum. Two of the moderators kept their pacu in 75 gallon tanks. At around age 2 years, both moderators' pacus suddenly died. The pacu forum died after the moderators' pacu died. This wonderful fish has the potential to live 30+ years in the right environment. To live to their full potential, pacu need appropriate housing. Based on my personal experience hearing about everyone's pacu dying, watching my pacu become truly monster fish, going through a major tank upgrade, I don't consider it flaming when I tell someone with a pacu in a 180 gallon tank that I hope they are planning a large tank upgrade for their fish. What I'm really hoping is that I don't see their "RIP Johnny Pacu" thread a year later.

Not all of us applaud JDM tanks. Not all of us try to cram as many fish into a large tank as we can. Yeah, I've had "reverse flaming"--questioning why I would just put two fish in a large tank. Some of us are just trying to do the best that we can for the fish that we have.

 

[DaniiloC]

There are many "Experience" guys here, that always says: This tank is small for this, this and that fish..you should keep only this fish...the filtration is not good...and bla bla bla...
But in the same time, when I look their tanks...FULL and CROWDED of fish..all them tight, on top of another and things like that...Ok, the filtration is good and water parameters could be too...but, these kind of guys seems care with amount and no with Health Being of the fish that are being kepet ...

In the beggining, many people told me that I was crazy...but when I showed pics, and setup...they simply like it and said that was everything alright...
I don't care if someone give me adivices..they're always welcome, considering the fact that I LOVE animals and want their best...In other hand, don't come to me and start talking me trash, and IF it happens, I just ignore. ;D

 

[alexanian]

Well IMO you can never give proper housing for a fish when compared to what they have in the wild no matter what size tank you give it, it's still confined. It's like saying a man will be happy in a 8x8 jail cell and sad in a 4x4 cell. As long as the water parameters r good and the fish is healthy it should be ok. We also know that we as humans will have health issues if we only eat processed factory food, so God knows what kinds of health issues our fish end up with when we feed them pellets and dry commercial foods as opposed to them having natural food from the wild. Who knows to what other kinds of torture we are exposing captive fish, but we all keep them for our pleasure. And also about comparing it to the dog situation (since many people do), wouldn't culling fry cuz u don't wanna keep them the same as killing ur dogs or cats unwanted litters? I understand that some people don't cull fry or use feeders, and just want to keep fish alive, so why don't i see any of you opposing the fry culling and feeder fish posts as fiercly as small tank posts?

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

Well IMO you can never give proper housing for a fish when compared to what they have in the wild no matter what size tank you give it, it's still confined. It's like saying a man will be happy in a 8x8 jail cell and sad in a 4x4 cell. As long as the water parameters r good and the fish is healthy it should be ok. We also know that we as humans will have health issues if we only eat processed factory food, so God knows what kinds of health issues our fish end up with when we feed them pellets and dry commercial foods as opposed to them having natural food from the wild. Who knows to what other kinds of torture we are exposing captive fish, but we all keep them for our pleasure. And also about comparing it to the dog situation (since many people do), wouldn't culling fry cuz u don't wanna keep them the same as killing ur dogs or cats unwanted litters? I understand that some people don't cull fry or use feeders, and just want to keep fish alive, so why don't i see any of you opposing the fry culling and feeder fish posts as fiercly as small tank posts?

people do cull dogs and cats. thousands of animals are put down simply because they have no home every year. No one eats them, or does anything with them, just killed and burned. Its sad. I don't really understand what your are rallying against alex. If you have fish weather you feed them live of food you are feeding them fish so the feeder thing is kinda goofy to keep pointing too.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

Yes some members on here don't communicate thier opinions with rational thoughts they just curse out the guy with the oscar. That doesn't make an oscar in a 55 ok because the MFK member goes nuts. If you want to only have fish when they are cute or convenient then work out a system by witch the fish doesn't suffer. In the case of many animals that is nearly impossible if your mind set is to promote your own interests before the fish from day 1. No there is no issue with raising a fish to eat it, people on this sight do that. Just don't explain away a bad setup as well I'm gonna eat it. That is insult to injury and won't gain you any points or respect. Know that you will probably get flack for anything you do on the internet so its frequently difficult to be "popular" if you are deviating from the popular belief on these forums. I would only ask that you try to understand other fish keepers as you ask them to understand and listen to you.