Electric Blue Jack Dempsey Questions

[SharptoothBass]

I wasn't speaking about breeding white dogs actually. I was simply stated that fully white dogs, like albino (not just a white coloration) is a mutation and it can be linked to other issues. Albino for any animal just tends to be toxic. Like there is NO true albino horses, they are all still born or die soon after birth because of how dangerous the gene is in horses. Linebreeding is a common way to produce a desired trait that is normally recessive, but even breeding good stock with good stock has it's consequences. The more you inbreed, the more problems arise as the defects start to pop up. Hence why purebred dogs tend to have more issues than a mutt, and "teacup" or other type traits have even more issues.

The same thing can be said about the EBJD it's a recessive gene and in order to produce it, it has downfalls. I'm not slamming the coloration, I enjoy my fish! I'm just stating that whether you can see an issue or not, there is likely SOMETHING wrong with the fish. It can be as obvious as a malformed head or less noticeable like a stomach issue.

I worked at the humane society for years mutts have a lot of health issues too. Dogs in this country have heatlh issues period because they are breed for nothing and by anyone. What mordern people fail to realize is that the majority of dogs were not created as pets but to perform a function, unless these dogs are breed to a standard of what they are created for u lose the integrity of the animals. People have breed lines of hunting and fighting dogs for over a century and weed out the defects by breeding sound, stable performance dogs you will always get a bad apple no matter how you breed thats why culling is important. The purebreed dogs you speak of with the heatlh problems are dogs breed for nothing but looks and color thats why they are unhealty. Thats exactly how the majority of these EBJDs are being breed strickly for looks and color. Because the fish come from a recessive gene they need to be very careful breed. People are breeding these things with all kind of visible deformitys ass long as they get blue fish. You have to have several sources of strong well conformed EBJDs,BGJDs and regular JDs to create solid EBJDs. Me personaly i would not even keep that fish you have there are others who would actualy breed it. I see it all the time on here not just with jacks either duck lips,underbites,hunch backs, weak tails and weak back ends and they still get breed because they are big,colorful or rare we introduce all the bad genes just for the sake of breeding.

 

[SharptoothBass]

Here is a photo of my ebjd, the very bottom photo next to a 2 liter for perspective (using for a cichlid trap to catch a smaller fish that day) My knowledge comes from understanding the basics of genetics in animals, not from the breeding of these beautiful fish. I don't claim to be an expert on the history of this fish either. For all I know they could have introduced a wild caught jack dempsey that's a carrier to help strengthen the gene pool, which is hopefully what they will do if it hasn't already been done. My info was just based on facts to mutations, as a dogo breeder you should be well aware of the issues that come along with breeding, especially with such a large breed that is likely prone to common issues like hip dysplasia and bloat.

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http://www.noresdogoargentino.com.ar/ingles/funcionalidad.htm u most weed out the week to breed a better animal. Genetics mean nothing without a standard, screening and culling process.

 

[Lauren Deadly]

Oh good lord people, you're getting off topic. It seems like you're arguing points that don't even need arguing and are pointless. You're throwing out your credentials like they mean something or have some sort of point when we're simply talking about genetics in fish, using an easy example like white dogs. Yes mutts have health issues, we could go on all night about all the reasons why anything can have defects. Who cares if you're a breeder or if you've worked in a shelter, I own a DOG business and rescue DOGS; but it's irrelevant to GENETICS and the whole point in this; ebjd being especially prone to malformations due to the gene, for whatever reason, not being mother nature's choice for survival. Good stock will absolutely help reduce these chances, but any continuous inbreeding and having potentially lethal genes present still make this particular fish vulnerable. Your pretty ebjd might be stunning but it could carry a recessive gene you may not even know about and may never show up in stock UNLESS you breed it to another fish with the same recessive gene that would be more likely if you used inbreeding.

 

[Lauren Deadly]

i.e. HUMAN defects such as Cystic Fibrosis not ever affecting your offspring UNLESS you and your partner both carry the gene. Even though it may not be inbreeding, things can still occur (like mutts) but the likelihood of your offspring having CF is much much higher if say you inbred. To bring it back, a lot of fish may have genetic malformations since it's common to breed siblings but for whatever reason the ebjd has had a lot of issues proving that either this gene has a lot of negative links or simply that it's just way too overbred even from good stock. We can possibly get better stock by introducing wild caught or another that's not so closely linked, but for the average person buying an ebjd they should be prepared that they will likely get a defect of some sort (even a slight) even possibly from a good breeder until more kinks in this can be worked out.

 

[chrismissfarm]

He is a great looking fish!

 

[SharptoothBass]

Oh good lord people, you're getting off topic. It seems like you're arguing points that don't even need arguing and are pointless. You're throwing out your credentials like they mean something or have some sort of point when we're simply talking about genetics in fish, using an easy example like white dogs. Yes mutts have health issues, we could go on all night about all the reasons why anything can have defects. Who cares if you're a breeder or if you've worked in a shelter, I own a DOG business and rescue DOGS; but it's irrelevant to GENETICS and the whole point in this; ebjd being especially prone to malformations due to the gene, for whatever reason, not being mother nature's choice for survival. Good stock will absolutely help reduce these chances, but any continuous inbreeding and having potentially lethal genes present still make this particular fish vulnerable. Your pretty ebjd might be stunning but it could carry a recessive gene you may not even know about and may never show up in stock UNLESS you breed it to another fish with the same recessive gene that would be more likely if you used inbreeding.

You took it off topic by using a bad example, animals with great genetics will still trow a bad apple or 2. Not throwing creds arounds its just people breeding animals with no purpose of function makes for bad animals period. Most defects in animals of any kind can be greatly reduced if not almost eliminated with proper breeding. Everytime a EBJD thread comes up including mine all the bogus instructions come out about how to raise them. I ignored all the info given and my fsh are fine yet the ones who seem to follow this info tend to be the ones with the dead EBJDs. Do you guys ever think that your info is just wrong and maybe these fish do better on live and frozen food.Also im not saying eliminate prepared food just switch it up. No everyone just thinks NLS is the answer to everything maybe your fish diet is why his eyes are like that, but people on here dont even consider that a option they just blame genetics and say the fish are weak. There was a guy who breed 2 EBJDs together and was trying to raise the fry i told him a local guy had sucsess raising them with baby brine shrimp his reply nls works better not one fish lived.You cant just blame genetics unless u have tried all options. Its funny how the person with the best looking and biggest EBJDs i have seen feeds the things everyone swears u shouldnt feed these fish. Its like people here play follow the leader to be accepted on this board, but for the sake of the fish we gotta learn to think out of the box.

 

[Aquanero]

There is always more then one way to skin a cat. Over the years I’ve seen many hobbyist do things differently from others with varied degrees of success. One mans success is often another mans folly and visa versa. You can feed an EBJD anything a regular JD can eat. Why not? Here, however lies the rub, they generally suffer from weaker genetics (this is a fact not speculation) which in some cases (note I said some) predisposes them having a weaker immune system when young. Even if a hobbyist happens to obtain an individual that is genetically superior to most, it would seem reasonable to approach the rearing of this fish as though it wasn’t. Doing so certainty wouldn’t harm the fish and may help the fish through the critical stage of development. Rapid growth is not always indicative of superior health or longevity. I prefer slower steady growth as IME it is less stressful on the internal organs and skeletal system, which could cause serious health issues down the road. This is true not only as it relates to EBJDs but all cichlids.
Warm water (low to mid 80’s) stimulates the metabolism and helps boost the immune system. A prepared food such as a high quality pellet is formulated with the nutritional requirements the fish need and would get from foraging in the wild. A combination of animal and plant matter that is consumed, either directly or indirectly in their natural environment along with added vitamins and minerals. Even obligate carnivores get a certain amount of plant matter from the stomach contents of their prey. The inclusion of garlic as example, not only acts as an appetite stimulant it also serves to acidify the digestive system creating a Ph. that is inhospitable to most unwanted bacteria/pathogens which is a cause of many issues in younger fish, the white stringy feces is often a bacterial infection that is miss diagnosed as IPs. This is not to say supplementation with live or frozen foods shouldn’t be considered or used, it’s just not necessary and I see no specific benefit from doing so if there is even there is a slight chance it could be detrimental. I would rather error on the side of caution in this instance. Once the fish is grown sufficiently to where it is stronger and the immune system has fully developed EBJDs seem to be as hardy as any other JD and should be treated accordingly. In my opinion and experience NLS .5mm Growth formula mixed with NLS Thera A+ is an excellent diet for these fish (as all cichlids I’ve kept) when young and will allow for a nutrient dense diet that will allow for a slow steady development and growth. Omega One Super Veggie pellets is also a good choice used in conjunction with the above. This, again is not arguing with or doubting anyone’s success doing otherwise, it would however I believe give a higher percentage of success to the average EBJD of suspect linage purchased by the average hobbyist. Somtimes, being inside the box isn't a bad place to be. Somtimes.

 

[SharptoothBass]

Hey man to each his own i think its time for me to focus on my program so ill stick to what i know works for me. I just dont see how staying in the box can be good if people keep ending up with dead and deformed fish? My issue is none of the people giving the advice seem to have healthy adult EBJDs most their fish are dead.

 

[dtownjodi]

I started with three from my lps two yrs ago, they were 1". I lost one, but just posted pix of my other two in this forum yesterday. At about six months one started picking on the other one and i had to get them each their own tank. The dominant one will not tolerate any other fish, not even a pleco. The other one has recenty accepted a small convict tank mate. They are awesome and worth it!

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[Empyreal]

Just buy it, live and learn from the experience