Ethics in fishkeeping

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aldiaz33, specifically we do not agree on silver aro's requirement(if I have gotten rid of my stock I believe I can put a silver aro or a Australian Aro in it. I also do not agree with Jose's various assessment of peacock bass. Otherwise I have no intention of arguing for keeping Arapima in a tank...I don't think I was arguing about that.

As for the monsters, when I started off in this hobby, I did successfully raised a RTC from 2 inches to 24-30 inches in a 100 gallon tank(a little over a year); thankfully that was a glass aquarium and I traded him in(lucky) for something else. In my current 300, it came with the default openings. If I have gotten a RTC and it gets say 3ft long and wider that 12 inches, I have to cut the fish up to remove from the tank ;) Not so much into that :D
 
lets not put blame on the lfs keepers. Of course they are out to make money. Before you buy any pet you should research it yourself and not just trust the guy that is about to take your money. There is a reason why most people get second opinions from people like mechanics and repair men. LFS should be no different. If your looking for a lap dog, you should research different breeds and not just blame the store keeper when he sells you a sheep dog with abundant energy.

I dont know what god said, but we can responsibly keep and house animals in appropriately sized homes and make them happy without conquering them and putting them in there place. After all, at the core of most of this debate is the difference in opinion over what constitutes acceptable homes to make the creatures happy and healthy.

Personally, I dont care for bare bottom tanks, it just seems unnatural. But I do see the benefits of tank maintenance and perhaps the ease and maybe even ability to keep superior water quality with ease of cleanup. But, to each his own and i dont see it as a matter of the fish suffering from a lack of a substrate(other than glass)

I have been wondering where pepe was since he never did make even a second comment even after 12 pages...
 
Shenanigans said:
lets not put blame on the lfs keepers. Of course they are out to make money. Before you buy any pet you should research it yourself and not just trust the guy that is about to take your money. There is a reason why most people get second opinions from people like mechanics and repair men. LFS should be no different. If your looking for a lap dog, you should research different breeds and not just blame the store keeper when he sells you a sheep dog with abundant energy.

I dont know what god said, but we can responsibly keep and house animals in appropriately sized homes and make them happy without conquering them and putting them in there place. After all, at the core of most of this debate is the difference in opinion over what constitutes acceptable homes to make the creatures happy and healthy.

Personally, I dont care for bare bottom tanks, it just seems unnatural. But I do see the benefits of tank maintenance and perhaps the ease and maybe even ability to keep superior water quality with ease of cleanup. But, to each his own and i dont see it as a matter of the fish suffering from a lack of a substrate(other than glass)

I have been wondering where pepe was since he never did make even a second comment even after 12 pages...
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I am not sure why we shouldn't put blame on one the biggest contributors for recommending stuffing large fish into inappropriate places. I figured it was common to trust an "expert" at a fish store when first starting up and naive. Buying a tank at LFS is different than getting a brake job and many many people do not even bother getting estimates from various sources, so why would they when it came to setting up their first tank?. If I am noob and decided to buy a tank why wouldn't I initially trust a specialized store with what you would assume are fish lovers as well. Your right people should research dogs but its evident that is not done very often by all the dogs being given away.
 
i stopped keeping fish in glass cages as it is truly inhumane. i stopped keeping fish altogether due to this very fact. i wont support the hobby where people buy pacus and put them in 55 gallon tanks, just so they can say, its only going to grow as big as the tank.
 
its simple, they are not fish lovers and are not experts. I have only been to one store that knew anything about fish. Most are just minimum wage jobs and people happy to have a job. The other problem is they have such a wide variety of animals. I would only trust a handful of people on MFK to be know about that many different species. I understand that you need someone to look up to but store employees shouldnt be your first choice. A good way to start would be looking online at some vendor sites. At least online they post some general info and if you like those species you can perform more research on it. People do research most animals as pets but when it comes to fish, people seem to think they dont really need much info to keep any species and that some basic general knowledge from an employee will suffice to start up a whole habitat for a whole new underwater world. I got into this hobby by talking to and looking at other fishkeepers. The people at the store might be able to tell you how to simply keep it alive, but when you look at places like petco and you see dead fish in there tanks....you think they are the experts? I know this is not always the case but I have rarely walked into a big chain store and didnt see dead fish in at least a few tanks.

Going to a mechanic, I believe he is an auto expert. Sorta like going to a fish store you think they are experts. Simply because you have fish in a glass box does not mean you know what you are doing. Think about who you look up to for advice

I understand a newbie has to start somewhere and I feel bad when they get bad advice or mislead and I understand. I wont criticize them too much for a mistake made by someone else misleading them. Just make an effort to research and verify the info given to you and less mistakes will be made. If you research things beforehand, you can ask specific questions and get better results, or you will be able to use what you have researched to figure out if the employee is knowledgable or talking out his behind
Now I do believe this is a little off track, sorry for the rant
 
ecoli73 said:
aldiaz33, specifically we do not agree on silver aro's requirement(if I have gotten rid of my stock I believe I can put a silver aro or a Australian Aro in it. I also do not agree with Jose's various assessment of peacock bass. Otherwise I have no intention of arguing for keeping Arapima in a tank...I don't think I was arguing about that.

As for the monsters, when I started off in this hobby, I did successfully raised a RTC from 2 inches to 24-30 inches in a 100 gallon tank(a little over a year); thankfully that was a glass aquarium and I traded him in(lucky) for something else. In my current 300, it came with the default openings. If I have gotten a RTC and it gets say 3ft long and wider that 12 inches, I have to cut the fish up to remove from the tank ;) Not so much into that :D
Click to expand...

Was the small openings in your 300G all that kept you from getting another RTC? I understand you think a 24" wide tank is large enough for an aro, but do you think it's big enough for a Redtail Cat?

As for successfully growing a fish out, I wouldn't call what you did a success. You grew a fish too large for your own tank and had to pawn it off on someone else since you couldn't care for it yourself. Odds are that it went to someone else with an undersized tank.

I admit, I've been guilty of that too...I had to sell an Aro when I moved several years ago and when I was 14 years old I "successfully" grew 2 Pacu to about 10" in a 40G hex tank which I eventually returned to the LFS. It's true that they didn't die in my care, but I wouldn't label that a success. I learned from those mistakes. What's disturbing is the people who don't learn and continue to try to keep species they don't have the resources to care for. I think that's the definition of unethical.

If you want to keep the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys and have big boy tanks. Show me a public aquarium in the U.S. where a silver aro is kept in a 24" wide tank? You won't see it because the pros know it's not right and there would be public outcry. Even your boy Johnny has his big aros in a 4' wide tank and he is the king of cramming big fish into little tanks.
 
Also, I don't quite remember any US only displays. Usually they are displayed with rtc and other giants which necessitate larger tanks. In fact the aros seem to need to run for their lives if RTC ever gets hungry.

I did see, while in china, in the shanghai zoo, a silver aro display with African Mbunas...that was in a 5x2x4 tank. Not that impressed with the display but the aros seemed healthy.


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