Good stuff here people have made valid points on either side of the equation with that said, I am guilty and selfish 
Ethics in fishkeeping
- Thread starter pepe
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This site is funny many people who get so upset about large fish in small tanks. Like I said before this site believes anything less than 125 shouldn't house anything except tetras.
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You win and your fish win.
Good stuff here people have made valid points on either side of the equation with that said, I am guilty and selfish
I am guilty too. We all are to a certain extent.
Who is upset? I thought we were having a healthy debate and if what you say were true, there wouldn't be so many "look at my RTC, Pima, GATF, Aro, Bass threads."
Keep us posted on your RTC in your 125G tank. I'm curious to hear how that works out.
I think the people that take things to the extreme on both sides of argument are the problem. Extremes are bad. You can spend five minutes on this site and find tons of threads with people way way over crowing And looking to add more and people cheering them on. You can find an equal amount of people that basically say every thing is over crowding and 6 tetras in a 180 wouldn't work.
A little realism, a little common sense and a little research. I am a hobbiest in general new to fish but these same rules apply to a lot of hobbys.
The amazon river is about 8 trillion gallons of water does that mean if you can't replicate it that you can't keep fish that live in it? Of course not. That doesn't mean you should put an Oscar into a 10g because you can fit it I there. Moderation on both sides.
A little realism, a little common sense and a little research. I am a hobbiest in general new to fish but these same rules apply to a lot of hobbys.
The amazon river is about 8 trillion gallons of water does that mean if you can't replicate it that you can't keep fish that live in it? Of course not. That doesn't mean you should put an Oscar into a 10g because you can fit it I there. Moderation on both sides.
aldiaz, come on now, you've gotta admit you're taking things to the extreme. You've got a 770 G 10 x 3 x 4 tank and the biggest fish you have are widebar silver dollars. And you've got barbs and raspboras in there. It seems really understocked to me. It's your tank so you should do whatever makes you happy, but I don't think most people here would be satisified with a stocklist like that. Most people here would have no problem putting rays, pbass or other large fish in a tank that size. It's always the people who understock who preach the loudest.
This may be silly since all of the info is readily available in each section, but why not make one master sticky to help people in the planning/building/buying process. Every section has threads about what to expect for each fish. For the building process, the dimensional requirements are the key bits of information. The daunting task of digging through piles of info of what fish eat, behaviors, etc. just to know what size tank will work is rather discouraging. Especially when one wants to build a community of various kinds or a custom tank where the sizes are up to the the guy digging the hole or drilling the boards.
Here is my proposition, why don't we start a thread in each forum (ex. Catfish, A. cichlids, gar, etc) and have the members, who will most likely have more specialized experience with the fish type in question, of what the minimum dimensions should be. Not gallons, but shortest side footprint and depth. Once a general consensus is made, make a sticky listing the fish by type and size so that people wanting a new kind of fish can get a good start on if it will work, because most pet stores always say it will. Once a person can be sure they have filled the minimum space requirements, they can go above and beyond with no fear.
The thread would not need to include every fish ever sold but instead have what I call "fluffy fish" that for one reason or another cannot be kept in a space fitting for them upon purchase.
An example of the format (and I'm just making some WAGs on facts)
PH,
acidic <<<PH effects respiration as well as many other physiologic processes, active happy fish will be in conditions it was evolved/bred for
...Temperature range,
...Warm <<<Yeah, you'll need a heater if you keep your fish in a cold, damp basement. Unless you live in Tropical zones where that is the regular temp.
...Chilly
...Cold <<<Not gonna be happy outside unless you live in the northern areas.
......Catfish
.......Large cats: RTC... "These typically reach a minimum of 3 feet within 2 years"
.........Shortest footprint size, 6 ft <<<This eliminates the skinny, super long tanks with the same volume of large square tanks because of the minimum size.
.........Minimum Depth, 3 ft <<<This keeps people from building 400 square foot ponds out of a 25x25 foot pond liner from the hardware store that fulfills the footprint but not depth
......Tetras:
.......Large Tetras: Mexican Tetra "Typically max out at 6 inches" "Highly active and require larger footprint"
..........Shortest footprint, 12 inches
..........Minimum depth, 6 inches <<<This effectively solves the 125 gal for a tetra type problem.
.......Small tetras
Other fish, like some cichlids do not need a big footprint for growth but instead for territory, that would be good to include. Don't need a 20 page paper as to why a 4 inch fish needs 4 square feet, just that it does.
People who own RTCs and other large fish are familiar with their physical capabilities. Some fish can easily make a turn in their body length like eels while others have the turning radius of an aircraft carrier. As mentioned earlier, a thumb rule does not fit. Let each group of "experts" set the bar.
Having an easily referenced source of dimensions could help prevent people from cutting corners. Granted this wouldn't be perfect but I think it'd be better.
I've seen and help set up something similar on an automotive forums with common information all in one location. In that case it was comparing models (wheel bases, suspension, ratings, etc.), engines (displacement, bore/stroke, power, fluid requirements) among many other things like common problems and easy fixes. On this fish forum, the fat can be trimmed to necessities. Rather than complain about people being stupid, lets do what we can to help them. Once upon a time everyone here was in the position where they didn't have a clue.
Here is my proposition, why don't we start a thread in each forum (ex. Catfish, A. cichlids, gar, etc) and have the members, who will most likely have more specialized experience with the fish type in question, of what the minimum dimensions should be. Not gallons, but shortest side footprint and depth. Once a general consensus is made, make a sticky listing the fish by type and size so that people wanting a new kind of fish can get a good start on if it will work, because most pet stores always say it will. Once a person can be sure they have filled the minimum space requirements, they can go above and beyond with no fear.
The thread would not need to include every fish ever sold but instead have what I call "fluffy fish" that for one reason or another cannot be kept in a space fitting for them upon purchase.
An example of the format (and I'm just making some WAGs on facts)
PH,
acidic <<<PH effects respiration as well as many other physiologic processes, active happy fish will be in conditions it was evolved/bred for
...Temperature range,
...Warm <<<Yeah, you'll need a heater if you keep your fish in a cold, damp basement. Unless you live in Tropical zones where that is the regular temp.
...Chilly
...Cold <<<Not gonna be happy outside unless you live in the northern areas.
......Catfish
.......Large cats: RTC... "These typically reach a minimum of 3 feet within 2 years"
.........Shortest footprint size, 6 ft <<<This eliminates the skinny, super long tanks with the same volume of large square tanks because of the minimum size.
.........Minimum Depth, 3 ft <<<This keeps people from building 400 square foot ponds out of a 25x25 foot pond liner from the hardware store that fulfills the footprint but not depth
......Tetras:
.......Large Tetras: Mexican Tetra "Typically max out at 6 inches" "Highly active and require larger footprint"
..........Shortest footprint, 12 inches
..........Minimum depth, 6 inches <<<This effectively solves the 125 gal for a tetra type problem.
.......Small tetras
Other fish, like some cichlids do not need a big footprint for growth but instead for territory, that would be good to include. Don't need a 20 page paper as to why a 4 inch fish needs 4 square feet, just that it does.
People who own RTCs and other large fish are familiar with their physical capabilities. Some fish can easily make a turn in their body length like eels while others have the turning radius of an aircraft carrier. As mentioned earlier, a thumb rule does not fit. Let each group of "experts" set the bar.
Having an easily referenced source of dimensions could help prevent people from cutting corners. Granted this wouldn't be perfect but I think it'd be better.
I've seen and help set up something similar on an automotive forums with common information all in one location. In that case it was comparing models (wheel bases, suspension, ratings, etc.), engines (displacement, bore/stroke, power, fluid requirements) among many other things like common problems and easy fixes. On this fish forum, the fat can be trimmed to necessities. Rather than complain about people being stupid, lets do what we can to help them. Once upon a time everyone here was in the position where they didn't have a clue.
Well that would be awesome it will never happen to many opinions to many species to much work the info is out there just have to take some time a do some research, can't just believe the first thing you read.
That's the problem, people find so many tank sizes where one person says you can another says you can't. I'd like to see a basic standard rather than threads that are 5 pages of "You can't do that." Some people are looking for the excuse to use a small tank regardless of how little sense it makes. I'm kinda thinking that is why people are fitting big fish into small tanks because they see baby pictures of fish in their grow out tanks and think if that guy could do it so can I. What they refuse to acknowledge is that guy has a larger gallon tank sitting there waiting.
I honestly do not feel like I'm being extreme. I like seeing fish able to swim with plenty of space. You are right that my biggest fish is currently an 8" Wide Bar Silver Dollar, but the Oscar will probably be my biggest fish once everyone is fully grown. I'm hoping I can grow him out to a 16" monster. These fish are all still babies...they will grow and fill out the tank. Although I realize that may take 5 or 6 years, I am happy knowing that I have a tank large enough for the Oscar and others, even when they are all fully grown. I would not enjoy watching a 16" fish in an 18" wide tank. In my mind that's not enough space.
When I think of how I want to stock a tank, I first think of fish that are appropriately sized for the tank I have. I go from there. It seems like a lot of people do it backwards...they start with what fish they want to keep and completly ignore the fact that the fish will outgrow their tank. The fact that most people would put fish that grow 3' long in a 3' wide tank does not make it right.
I changed what you wrote a bit...hope you don't mind:
It's always the people who understock who have the healthiest fish.
It's always the people that overstock that post pictures of their dead fish.
i just hate going to lfs, chain stores and seeing tanks with a dead fish our fish (fishes)
it happens every time and people just think oh poor fish and don't actually realize its the store owner / care takers fault
it happens every time and people just think oh poor fish and don't actually realize its the store owner / care takers fault
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