Thanks for explaining, because they don't know Ira its not legit, thats just hilariousJoeFatFish;3645389; said:
F0 jack dempsey's
- Thread starter caribemob
- Start date
As I said before, I'm not questioning the authenticity of the fish. I believe you and Ira if you say they are wild and from a particular location. It would be BETTER if the actual person who collected them could be identified...post pictures of the collection process, biotype, what other fish were found with them, process for bringing them back, etc, etc. Ken Davis is more than willing to do that.
What I am questioning is whether they were obtained legally. LEGALLY taking fish from Mexico, as I understand, requires a permit from the Mexican government. And the government, as I also understand, is presently only handing out permits to those with scientific (vs. commercial or hobby) reasons for taking wildlife from their country. They've cracked down on the people smuggling birds, reptiles and other animals out. They haven't yet on fish (or maybe Joe's experience demonstrates that they, in fact, ARE)...
An import/export permit from US Fish and Wildlife is only part of the equation: the easier part. Getting legal clearance to collect and take fish out of originating countries can be the hard part.
There are a lot of rationalizations why smuggling is justified or even beneficial. That said, I prefer to know that the fish that I have in my collection / sell to others were collected Legally / with proper permits. But that's just me...
Matt
What I am questioning is whether they were obtained legally. LEGALLY taking fish from Mexico, as I understand, requires a permit from the Mexican government. And the government, as I also understand, is presently only handing out permits to those with scientific (vs. commercial or hobby) reasons for taking wildlife from their country. They've cracked down on the people smuggling birds, reptiles and other animals out. They haven't yet on fish (or maybe Joe's experience demonstrates that they, in fact, ARE)...
An import/export permit from US Fish and Wildlife is only part of the equation: the easier part. Getting legal clearance to collect and take fish out of originating countries can be the hard part.
There are a lot of rationalizations why smuggling is justified or even beneficial. That said, I prefer to know that the fish that I have in my collection / sell to others were collected Legally / with proper permits. But that's just me...
Matt
Like Dog, I just want to be able to get some wild JD's without getting hosed (i.e. captive bred fish) or contributing to illegal activity.
Sorry Caribe if you feel as if we've been attacking you. That wasn't my intent, and I really don't think it was the intent of anyone else. Seriously, best of luck with your fish!
On the other hand, I will admit to very definitely attacking what seems to have become a very busy business in "false" wilds. That is wrong on so many levels it's hard to know where to start. If someone says they have wilds, I can't take it on face value in most cases thanks to the unscrupulous behavior of many sellers.
Again, I'd love the opportunity to have more sources from which to acquire high quality fish. But if anyone wants my money for "wild" fish, they'll have to provide some basic background info.
Sorry Caribe if you feel as if we've been attacking you. That wasn't my intent, and I really don't think it was the intent of anyone else. Seriously, best of luck with your fish!
On the other hand, I will admit to very definitely attacking what seems to have become a very busy business in "false" wilds. That is wrong on so many levels it's hard to know where to start. If someone says they have wilds, I can't take it on face value in most cases thanks to the unscrupulous behavior of many sellers.
Again, I'd love the opportunity to have more sources from which to acquire high quality fish. But if anyone wants my money for "wild" fish, they'll have to provide some basic background info.
Nice looking Jack!!!
I have no idea if that is a wild fish or not and I do not know Ira but have heard some good things about him. It is the sellers responsibility to provide collection locations and info in the fish they carry. Several times in this thread it was mentioned that no one question Jeff or Ken or so on. That is not true, I have talked to both Jeff and Ken about were they got a certain fish and how they can promise to me that it is legit. All of us should be asking these questions for any fish we are buying online otherwise you are setting yourself up to be taken advantage of. If the seller can not give me a collection and how they obtained the fish then I'm not going to claim it is wild or trust it to be that. That goes for Ken, Jeff, Ira, etc. Ken and Jeff have always been happy to talk to me about were they got there fish and provide detailed info about F1 fry from there breeding pairs or who got there wilds for them if they did not collect them. Sometimes a seller might not want to give a name to protect a certain source but they can always give me enough info that I feel comfortable with it.
I don't know enough about collecting in Mexico to know if something is legal or not, but if you have to bribe someone to get them back in the county something isn't legit. Otherwise why would you have to bribe them?
I have no idea if that is a wild fish or not and I do not know Ira but have heard some good things about him. It is the sellers responsibility to provide collection locations and info in the fish they carry. Several times in this thread it was mentioned that no one question Jeff or Ken or so on. That is not true, I have talked to both Jeff and Ken about were they got a certain fish and how they can promise to me that it is legit. All of us should be asking these questions for any fish we are buying online otherwise you are setting yourself up to be taken advantage of. If the seller can not give me a collection and how they obtained the fish then I'm not going to claim it is wild or trust it to be that. That goes for Ken, Jeff, Ira, etc. Ken and Jeff have always been happy to talk to me about were they got there fish and provide detailed info about F1 fry from there breeding pairs or who got there wilds for them if they did not collect them. Sometimes a seller might not want to give a name to protect a certain source but they can always give me enough info that I feel comfortable with it.
I don't know enough about collecting in Mexico to know if something is legal or not, but if you have to bribe someone to get them back in the county something isn't legit. Otherwise why would you have to bribe them?
i WOULDNT TRUST that either becuase who you think is legit might not be actually what they say they are too, some people sell fish at a size that isnt even the size posted, so i will deal with guys like IRA who deal with quality fish and is active in fish clubs and deals with people that actually write books on this stuff.cchhcc;3645745; said:
I, for one, would love to see more done to guarantee the origin of our fish but, unfortunately, I have to accept the integrity of the seller. It's a rare privilege to be able to buy fish directly from the hands of the person who collected them, which is why Joefatfish and others like him are so important to the hobby.
As for the other wilds floating around the hobby, who's to say where they really came from? Even if the seller is honest, their sources may not be and without collection points and anecdotal evidence about the collection of the fish, who knows.
We've recently seen huge quantities of F0 festae, as well as the F0 'holy grail' Umbees that Jeff Rapps imported recently. Does anyone know the collection point on, let alone the person who collected, these fish?
Ultimately, as hobbyists who spend a considerable amount of $ on f0/ f1 fish we have enormous amounts of power in the hobby. Therefore, I value the importance of these questions and think that the few vendors who offer these specimens should be kept honest by our scrutiny, one and all.
A vendor should stand by their stock and it's quality.
-If he's willing to engage in extensive conversation about his fish, that's a plus.
-If I can see picture of the fish that I'm getting rather than an example of the species, or
-If he'll allow me to see his facilities and hand pick my fish, that's even better.
-Ultimately; when you, the vendor, stand by the fish you sell and go out of your way to make us customers happy by making sure we get what you say you've got (whether we're talking about f#, sex, size, or even species) and owning your mistakes when you make them, you win long term trust, loyalty and respect.
We all know which vendors have or haven't lived up to these standards and we should flex our economic muscle by voicing bad experiences and disappointments with the various vendors on the forum.
Fish too small? Speak on it!
Too expensive? Speak on it!
Wrongly sexed? Speak on it!
This will create competition amongst the vendors, which benefits us hobbyist in the end.
As for the fish, if they're wild they should speak for themselves.
As for the other wilds floating around the hobby, who's to say where they really came from? Even if the seller is honest, their sources may not be and without collection points and anecdotal evidence about the collection of the fish, who knows.
We've recently seen huge quantities of F0 festae, as well as the F0 'holy grail' Umbees that Jeff Rapps imported recently. Does anyone know the collection point on, let alone the person who collected, these fish?
Ultimately, as hobbyists who spend a considerable amount of $ on f0/ f1 fish we have enormous amounts of power in the hobby. Therefore, I value the importance of these questions and think that the few vendors who offer these specimens should be kept honest by our scrutiny, one and all.
A vendor should stand by their stock and it's quality.
-If he's willing to engage in extensive conversation about his fish, that's a plus.
-If I can see picture of the fish that I'm getting rather than an example of the species, or
-If he'll allow me to see his facilities and hand pick my fish, that's even better.
-Ultimately; when you, the vendor, stand by the fish you sell and go out of your way to make us customers happy by making sure we get what you say you've got (whether we're talking about f#, sex, size, or even species) and owning your mistakes when you make them, you win long term trust, loyalty and respect.
We all know which vendors have or haven't lived up to these standards and we should flex our economic muscle by voicing bad experiences and disappointments with the various vendors on the forum.
Fish too small? Speak on it!
Too expensive? Speak on it!
Wrongly sexed? Speak on it!
This will create competition amongst the vendors, which benefits us hobbyist in the end.
As for the fish, if they're wild they should speak for themselves.
As I posted before on this thread the dempseys are from Rio Naranja, I have sold hundreds of wild and f1 fish to members on this site and NONE have complained about the quality of the fish. Seriously I have only had positive feedback and would never try to rip off anyone I deal with my reputation limited as it is speaks volumes. Many members have been to my facility I even hosted A MFK Meet & Greet which had a tremendous response my doors open daily feel free to stop by and check out the fish. Last week a vendor called Kareef about some fish he had and Kareef told him he was getting his fish from me the vendor had some negative comments including the fact that my fish were not wild and my sources were not reliable. Some of the comments on this thread sound just like the conversation Kareef had with this vendor last week. Personally this back stabbing is beneath me. To all the members that have supported me I am truly grateful and if you will take a few minutes to post some pics of the fish you have recieved and comment on the service you recieved that would be great. You can depend on me to continue providing top quality fish at reasonable prices and customer service second to none. My fish are great if I do say so myself, I take great care of them and only sell the best.
cool i understand but Ira told everyone on this thread where it came from so if you read this whole thread you would see what river they came from, and about rapps i spent mad money with him, but that dont make his fish wild either because he dont collect so basically you believe what he tells you and we believe him because he has been in the business longer and people vouch for him, do you understandjgentry;3645826; said:
