Festae- Quality VS Trash!!

[RD.]

No need to get all pissy, bomilly. I've already read where you stated that you have bred festae since the late 70's, so you're an old fart. Congrats, so am I.

3rd what Damien does not cover is the fact the same genetic rules does not apply to each and every species.

Actually he did.

Current studies tend to conclude that there is a balance point appropriate to each species between inbreeding resistance and outbreeding resistance.

What is most interesting to me is that this balance point seems to be very different for every single species of animal out there!

While my comment was a general one, it was in response to you previous comment, where you stated;

"Another major contributor to the high rate of abnormalities is incest/inbreeding. Many inexperienced hobbyist are instructed to buy a group and let them pair out naturally. Not the best advice if they all come from the same spawn.

I agree, random inbreeding can in some cases increase the rate of abnormalities - just as randon outbreeding can.

Is that better?


You asked;

Are you or the ones who support your opinions Geneticist that have specifically studied Peruvian/Ecudorian Festae?

Nope, how about you? If you have any peer reviewed published papers to support your hypothesis I'd certainly be interested in reading them.

Thanks.

 

[bomillyiam]

No need to get all pissy, bomilly. I've already read where you stated that you have bred festae since the late 70's, so you're an old fart. Congrats, so am I.

Oh Boy! Then we stink to Hi Heaven!LOL!

But Pissy? PULLeeez! This thread has plenty of life.
Believe it or not, I am actually learning a few things as we go. Keep chimin in.



Actually he did.
Yeah. I went back and read it in it's entirety. Loved the dialogue.

While my comment was a general one, it was in response to you previous comment, where you stated;

I agree, random inbreeding can in some cases increase the rate of abnormalities - just as randon outbreeding can.

. But the keyword is random, as you've stated. And in reality, 95% of Festae spawns whether in or outbreeding are random. I said it's not the best advice, but what I didn't say was it's the worst. But inbreeding can become when it's perpetual for several generations. Outcrossing can introduce new issues. But really, how many on here are breeding to the level we're discussing?

Is that better?
Hey man, I aint here for appeasement.


You asked?

Nope, how about you? If you have any peer reviewed published papers to support your hypothesis I'd certainly be interested in reading them.

I respectfully decline since my knowledge is rooted in practical experience. Not uneducated guessing.
I'd rather rely on the natives, the biology depts. of a couple universities that periodically send teams to Ecuador/Peru, and real life experience. To set the record straight, I am not a random hobbyist breeder. I am a student of this species. My stock is almost never up for sale. And when one is, it's never to someone who hasn't thoroughly educated themselves.

"Been there?"

Ecuador?! Quito, Rio Bamba, Guayacil, Banos, a few smaller villages, and Les Esmeraldes.
Tumbes, Peru? Affirmative!
Observed them in their natural state? Uh huh! Seen abnormalities? A few! Saw arced snouts?! Missing bars? NADA! Uneven bites? yyyyNO! Arced spines? A couple. Receding dorsals? Not a one! Battle/environmental scars. Oh Buddy! A savage lot they are out there!

Earlier in the thread someone attributed deformed muzzles, beaks as we refer to them, to a possible volcanic eruption changing their natural environment causing their mouths to adapt to a different method of feeding. Of the 9 major volcanoes in Ecuador, Tungurahua is the most consistently active. Additionally, none of them are near the western coast which is where Guayacil, and Tumbes, Peru are located. Les Esmeraldes is in the extreme NW. The natural habitat of Festae has remained relatively unaffected for decades.
Now I've gone and spent more than .02 on here so someone owes me change!

 

[bomillyiam]

...and why would festae be radically different than other new world cichlids with regard to inbreeding?

...and what does having been to Ecuador or Peru have to do with anything? I've been to Colombia, Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay, though

Matt

They aren't that radically different, but the exact same rule of thumb cannot applied to every single species of New World Cichlid. My response was aimed at those blaming the F0 for the problems without anything other than conjecture or speculation. The group that truly captured the art of inbreeding and outcrossing were the old school pit bull breeders. They were masters at it. And I don't recall any of them being geneticist though quite a few were biologist to some degree or another.
Observing/studying the fish in their natural habitat allows you to observe what issues may be occurring in nature and how it relates to what we are seeing in the hobby. That's all.

Sweet places you've been to. Ya got me beat by 2. I've got Brazil, Uraguay, and Suriname in meez crosshairs.

 

[roadrunner]

Bill you better chill out! You are going to spend all of your money on here. I don't think you are going to get any change back. I think you just left a big tip! I am not spending any more of my money on here until tomorrow. And before you ask, no they did not let me out again. I broke out!

 

[RD.]

Are you or the ones who support your opinions Geneticist that have specifically studied Peruvian/Ecudorian Festae?

I respectfully decline since my knowledge is rooted in practical experience.

Understood, but then why ask the question? Every hypothesis is created on the basis of limited evidence, and is only a starting point for further research. Until detailed genetic research is available for this particular species of cichlid we are all making somewhat uneducated guesses as to the exact how's & whys of inbreeding depression and how it affects this particluar species of fish.

I think that if you go back & read my initial response with regards to inbreeding, I was in no way stating that inbreeding for several generations is ideal, or advocating that anyone should be breeding sibling offspring for several generations, festae or otherwise.

I said 2 generations of inbreeding is the "BEGINNING" of the downward spiral not the end. Continuation of generation after generation of inbreeding was my point.

And a valid point it is. While perhaps there are no in-depth inbreeding studies that involve festae, there are definitely studies involving other cichlid species (such as Cichlasoma nigrofasciatum) that clearly demonstrate that by F4 generations both moderately & severely deformed fry were being produced.

In other studies it has been shown that some cichlids (Pelvicachromis taeniatus) prefer mating with unfamiliar close relatives vs. non relatives, suggesting inclusive fitness advantages for inbreeding individuals, and that in some cases inbreeding is an advantageous strategy for survival.

So again we are in complete agreement, inbreeding depression can & does vary among different species of fish.

My response was aimed at those blaming the F0 for the problems without anything other than conjecture or speculation.

Fair enough.

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

Great info guys so now I have a question... If the exporting of festae out of Ecuador has been shut down, for what 2-3years??? Then what's with these posts of people recently obtaining these wild caught Ecuador festae within the last year???

 

[aclockworkorange]

Great info guys so now I have a question... If the exporting of festae out of Ecuador has been shut down, for what 2-3years??? Then what's with these posts of people recently obtaining these wild caught Ecuador festae within the last year???

Who knows what's actually going on down there? Maybe they're growing out WC fish in vats or maybe they're breeding them and they aren't wild, maybe they're getting around laws...


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[aclockworkorange]

Is it collecting that's illegal or...?


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[dogofwar]

I wasn't aware that exporting out of Ecuador was now illegal. Seems like most of the wild fish I've seen have been transhipped but come to think of it...it's been a couple of years.

The number of "wild" fish on the market will meet the demands of people seeking wild fish in the market, whether the fish are actually wild or not.

Great info guys so now I have a question... If the exporting of festae out of Ecuador has been shut down, for what 2-3years??? Then what's with these posts of people recently obtaining these wild caught Ecuador festae within the last year???

 

[HighBackRTG]

I bought a group of grow out Festae back in September all about an inch. They seemed to be pretty good but one of them ended up being like this.
It's got that huge hump and what seems to be short body? The thing is, I never caught the hump until recently. Maybe it was too small for me to notice. It's out competed all the other grow outs and has grown the most by far. The thing has also killed 2 of the others. I will probably never let it breed...but it's interesting to look at.