Fish illness'

[kamikaziechameleon]

20 gallon tanks are a bit too small for african cichlids. The tank size is fine for grow outs but not for adults. Don't know what disease you were treating for as your link doesn't tell me anything. As far as losing fish right after a water change, it could be pH shock or possibly bad water. Do you use hot water from your water heater when doing water changes? Sometimes old hot water heaters can cause problems. I don't know the pH of your tank water or the water you use to do water changes. Also don't know the buffering capacity of your water.

I just wouldn't expect to see all the discoloration, scale damage, swollen anus, shredded fins etc. from water shock/ph swing. That being said the water lines have been redone in the last 6 months (but no on a time line that I think correlates to water change deaths, not sure though can't remember clearly) The hot water heater is also brand new was installed just prior to me getting the house.

 

[framcosco]

First, I am sorry to hear you were sold sick fish. Been there and it sucks. My two cents: I have read your thread and nowhere do I see water parameters. You have to eliminate the possibility of the obvious first. What is the PH from the tap vs aquarium PH? Temperature difference? If you are using heated water from the tap, it can make a big difference even if your heater is new. I used to use heated tap water until I found out the heated tap water was much higher in Total Dissolved Solids vs the non heated water. I now heat my water in barrels. What is the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate parameters? I know this may not be the main source of your problem, but you must rule this out first.

Once you have done this and decide to continue on a shotgun approach, this is what I recommend, metro in the fish food if the fish are eating. Metro is an antibiotic and will also combat internal parasites. DO NOT add any antibiotics to the water column if giving metro via food. Adding antibiotics to the water column will only raise TDS and stress the fish out. Feeding antibiotics is the second best way to get the meds to the fish (first being a shot of antibiotics). Please do a search on metro and food. The dosage is very important. If the dosage is not strong enough, you may see improvement to only have your fish get sick again.

As far as the swollen anus, if you suspect worms or can see worms coming out of its anus, levamisole or flubendazole will do the trick.

If at all possible move your sick fish to a larger tank to reduce stress. You mentioned a 75gal. A stressed out fish will rarely recover even with the proper meds. Do water changes every other day. Put black "paper" on the sides and back of the tank. Reducing stress is key. Turn off the lights.

Best of luck.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

First, I am sorry to hear you were sold sick fish. Been there and it sucks. My two cents: I have read your thread and nowhere do I see water parameters. You have to eliminate the possibility of the obvious first. What is the PH from the tap vs aquarium PH? Temperature difference? If you are using heated water from the tap, it can make a big difference even if your heater is new. I used to use heated tap water until I found out the heated tap water was much higher in Total Dissolved Solids vs the non heated water. I now heat my water in barrels. What is the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate parameters? I know this may not be the main source of your problem, but you must rule this out first.

Once you have done this and decide to continue on a shotgun approach, this is what I recommend, metro in the fish food if the fish are eating. Metro is an antibiotic and will also combat internal parasites. DO NOT add any antibiotics to the water column if giving metro via food. Adding antibiotics to the water column will only raise TDS and stress the fish out. Feeding antibiotics is the second best way to get the meds to the fish (first being a shot of antibiotics). Please do a search on metro and food. The dosage is very important. If the dosage is not strong enough, you may see improvement to only have your fish get sick again.

As far as the swollen anus, if you suspect worms or can see worms coming out of its anus, levamisole or flubendazole will do the trick.

If at all possible move your sick fish to a larger tank to reduce stress. You mentioned a 75gal. A stressed out fish will rarely recover even with the proper meds. Do water changes every other day. Put black "paper" on the sides and back of the tank. Reducing stress is key. Turn off the lights.

Best of luck.

I also have other populations of fish not afflicted by this, including several fry tanks and a 75 gallon cichlid community, but I will pick up a test kit and test prior to making the shot gun treatment. When we move the fish we will only turn on the lights for treatment. So my question is Metro+ better/more potent or broader reaching than tetracycline? I want to blitz through treatments(7 days as I said) so I can decentralize this population and move them into their long term tanks so they can finally be happy.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

treated them with this before:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...Treating-Hexamita-aka-Spironucleus&highlight=

 

[framcosco]

I also have other populations of fish not afflicted by this, including several fry tanks and a 75 gallon cichlid community, but I will pick up a test kit and test prior to making the shot gun treatment. When we move the fish we will only turn on the lights for treatment. So my question is Metro+ better/more potent or broader reaching than tetracycline? I want to blitz through treatments(7 days as I said) so I can decentralize this population and move them into their long term tanks so they can finally be happy.

If the sick fish are eating, administering orally via food, is incredibly much more effective than adding adding any antibiotics in the water column. If the fish are not eating and you will be adding antibiotics to the water column,kanamycin + nitrofurazone or triple sulfa are very broad range meds. Again, if the fish are eating, I would recommend against adding antibiotics to the water column. TO answer your question, all of these antibiotics are potent. Most are broad spectrum. The thing just like in humans, some bacteria strains are resistant to certain antibiotics. We don't know if the meds will work against a certain bacterial strain unless we do cultures which in most cases is out of the reach of the home aquaria. This is why it is a shotgun approach, we are not 100% sure if its even bacterial to begin with, let alone be 100% sure if its going to be effective against a particular strain. There is nothing wrong with tetracycline but it has been used for so long, many bacterial strains have become immune to it. So using "newer" antibiotics decreases the chances of a particular strain being immune/resistant to a certain antibiotic.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

If the sick fish are eating, administering orally via food, is incredibly much more effective than adding adding any antibiotics in the water column. If the fish are not eating and you will be adding antibiotics to the water column,kanamycin + nitrofurazone or triple sulfa are very broad range meds. Again, if the fish are eating, I would recommend against adding antibiotics to the water column. TO answer your question, all of these antibiotics are potent. Most are broad spectrum. The thing just like in humans, some bacteria strains are resistant to certain antibiotics. We don't know if the meds will work against a certain bacterial strain unless we do cultures which in most cases is out of the reach of the home aquaria. This is why it is a shotgun approach, we are not 100% sure if its even bacterial to begin with, let alone be 100% sure if its going to be effective against a particular strain. There is nothing wrong with tetracycline but it has been used for so long, many bacterial strains have become immune to it. So using "newer" antibiotics decreases the chances of a particular strain being immune/resistant to a certain antibiotic.

Ok, that helps me understand more. I have next to no exposure to real fish medicine I've always had ich problems and treated with salt and raise the temp no prob. Now it seems I'm prone to getting really fussy disease that is more resilient, perhaps because the outlets I'm acquiring fish through have changed, perhaps because I no longer have issues with easier outbreaks like ich and fungus I'm now getting to see stuff I didn't get to see before.

Fish are eating and eagerly, I've seen that Jungle med food has been recommended me many times but it is no longer readily available? has it been pulled for a reason? The ingredients are readily available and I could make my own.
http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/medicated-food-explained-and-explored.html
the main meds:
Metronidazole, Praziquantel, and Levimasole
I could get those on the internet and make it up asap! let me know your thoughts.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

Any recommended outlets for getting these meds? or the kanamycin + nitrofurazone or triple sulfa you recommended?

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

The reason I think its bacterial (besides the complete absence of external parasites) is because I've treated twice full 7 plus days for internal parasites with epsom salt. I was 2 days into using metro when i read that thread about how damaging metro can be and switched to epsom salt, I think the original epsom results where actually tied to the minor treatment of metro. Given that I feel like I'm running out of time with the fish since its apparent tension is getting high as observed chiclids don't like 20 gallon tanks I really want to cover all my bases (that is where the shotgun comes from). I'm kinda rushing to get them through this and eligible for moving into larger tanks I don't have to worry about treating (because that gets expensive!). I'm worried I'll start seeing demises because of aggression not disease and that is really a shame.

Will raising salinity(with solar salt) in a tank effect internal parasites? Will copper safe effect internal parasites?

EDIT: But at the end of the day I have no idea what I'm dealing with its a guessing game that is #1 why I'm on here, I need your guys knowledge to save the fish.

 

[framcosco]

Any recommended outlets for getting these meds? or the kanamycin + nitrofurazone or triple sulfa you recommended?

Joe, last time I am saying this, if your fish are eagerly eating and you are going to administer antibiotics, metro in food is the way to go. period. it is a broad spectrum antibiotic and it can/will eliminate certain internal parasites at the same time. Why would you want to buy antibiotic meds to add to the water column, when you fish are eating? A waste of money and not as effective as antibiotics in food.

The more I think about your situation, the more I think it is not a bacterial infection. Your fish die sporadically (not all or several at once). Normally during a heavy bacterial attack, atleast a cluster of fish become sick and die around the same time, while the stronger fish resist sickness longer. There is no way of telling unless we start putting stuff under the microscope.

Make sure your water params are in check. Shotgun: metro in food. levamisole or flubendazole for deworming. water changes water changes water changes...... and water changes.

The use use of epson salt in food is for internal parasites. Epson salt will do nothing for a bacterial infections. I myself have used the epson salt as a preventative on high risk wild caught specimens.

I have found that a good UV helps alot (although half the people on here will say it is useless).

 

[framcosco]

The reason I think its bacterial (besides the complete absence of external parasites) is because I've treated twice full 7 plus days for internal parasites with epsom salt. I was 2 days into using metro when i read that thread about how damaging metro can be and switched to epsom salt, I think the original epsom results where actually tied to the minor treatment of metro. Given that I feel like I'm running out of time with the fish since its apparent tension is getting high as observed chiclids don't like 20 gallon tanks I really want to cover all my bases (that is where the shotgun comes from). I'm kinda rushing to get them through this and eligible for moving into larger tanks I don't have to worry about treating (because that gets expensive!). I'm worried I'll start seeing demises because of aggression not disease and that is really a shame.

Will raising salinity(with solar salt) in a tank effect internal parasites? Will copper safe effect internal parasites?

EDIT: But at the end of the day I have no idea what I'm dealing with its a guessing game that is #1 why I'm on here, I need your guys knowledge to save the fish.

metro can be damaging to fish, as all other strong antibiotics out in the market. that is why many believe in not medicating at all. pure water changes, and aquarium salt is the choice of many. I personally only use meds as a last resort. Calm down and stop wanting to dose your tank with all sorts of meds. This will do more harm than good. Trust me I've been there. As a shotgun approach, read my previous post. I can't stress this enough, check water parameters, and continue doing water changes religiuously on top of the shotgun approach. Good luck.