That's not a fight! You drop food in the middle of two hungry fish. What do you expect? It's just one fish is slower than the other, so he got the other fish, instead of food!
Gar and Saratoga fight
- Thread starter Ramesh
- Start date
- Status
jlnguyen74;2838602; said:
Exactly!!! No it wasn't but it was a warning that I am paying close attention to.
As for some members and the high horses they believe they ride opon, there opinions are always noted but they are certainly not the authority on anything but their own experiences.
Getting hyperbolic and making unfonded knee jerk assumptions about the level of care, knowledge and management of other members fish is easy to do and is only self serving and egotistical.
I knew it may be a problem but the fish are both fine today eating well and will make it through the next two weeks before their upgrade.
Judging others harshly and quickly, certainly comes easy to some and I am very thankful that they have little influence over others from their Ivory towers.
The "post your Gator Gar" thread that is clear evidence to some of negligence is a very valid tread that clearly states in serveral of my posts that space and planning must be taken into account and are important issues particularly with this species.
Now I have posted several times in different threads showing pics of my Gator in community tanks as it has grown and stated many times my plans for it's progression from (55g-180g-240g) to the 500g and finally to an outdoor pond (of it's own).
I have posted several comments to other members in the thread indicating that large digs are needed and planning is essential for this spp.
I have certainly never jumped to or drawn conclusions like some about "other members" fish keeping and planning.
One bite is not a fight just a situation that I didn't see coming at the time of feeding.
This morning when I feed the Gar wasn't waiting with the Saratoga so there was no feeding competition.
The Saratoga feed happily and then the Gar and Petenia feed, no problems.
This situation has ownly occured once and at feeding, otherwise they are quite amicable.
The larger tank (500g)will be perfect for a while dependent on the Gars growth.
I am not concerned that I will loose a fish over this incident I just wanted to tell other members about what happened and the need to monitor even mundane situations for changes.
As for a power shift I am not sure my initial thoughts were right as the Gar is still very repectful of the Saratoga even after the incident.
There was no "fight" just a miss placed grab for food.
Polypterus;2835403; said:
Space was the issue in this circumstance but only due to introducing food in close proximity.
They were fine this morning and no Gars cetainly don't need to kept alone there are countless examples to the contrary.
Competition for resources is the primary limiting factor when keeping fish together happy and healthy, namely space and food.
Really? so you think that what some happen to be saying here is based on just isolated individual experience? Sorry dude your very wrong... There is a hell of a lot more being added into this than isolated individual experience and opinion. Couple people here are not just hobbyists playing with gar for pets. They go a bit above and beyond that. You may want to lose the myopic view that all that post on these sites are just hobbyists. Not all are...
I've heard this from so many people with dead or disappeared Gator gars that it means nothing anymore... you either have the facilities to keep it or forget it. Kudos if you actually care to carry this out but I'm not giving one second of thought to "In the future" stuff.. Right now you have poor conditions for this Gar...To care for gar (Especially Atractosteus) Multiple housing options are needed at the start not in the future. I do not care what your plan is you still have no idea of what is needed to keep this particular fish to it's potential. This is beyond evident just by this post existing.
It is ridiculous to me so many actually think these fish are Community animals. They are not in general best kept as such. It is not their nature, it is not the fish. Will they survive? sure.. will they actually thrive and be at their best? NO they will not. Give them the proper resources and conditions and you will see this.
Really do not try to say you know how to keep gar or know anything of them if you really have never bothered to actually keep them. You want your postage stamp like collection of fish with a gar included. you have no interest in Having the fish for anything but to have one in your trophy collection. Just like many on here...
Actually correctly keeping gar and just housing and caring for one are very different things. Few here seem to have direct experience and background to understand this distinction.
Glad you realize that now when is it going to dawn that this is key to keeping gar? In particular it is Lack of any limiting factor that favors these fish.
I am surprised you "experts" tolerate us "hobbyist" at all, as you can’t even put up with or listen to anything we say because you have heard it all before!!
This intolerance of us “laymen” becomes your justification for why we must in turn listen to your opinions.
As for the ‘argument from authority’ that is for those in don't understand the logical fallacy of it use to argue a point. You falsely assume you know about my experience and background to lump me in with those you clearly despise on here.
Those that have unfairly assumed the worse have been noted and I will watch closely to see if they have the integrity to change there opinions upon further consideration and time to judge myself differently.
I don’t particularly care really but I would never assume to know more than others and I am always open to learning more but will never be confined by those who have come before me and have experience. My personal back ground and formal education is in Science more accurately Evolutionary Biology and Zoology but that is irrelevant as I am here only to share and provide constructive feedback if possible.
By your logic fish keepers like Johnptc who keep multiple Arapaima in a square tank, that he had to build and isn’t 20.000G or rounded like Zoodiver believes they need to thrive, are negligent fish keepers because they don’t have the space/tanks planned before hand and can’t properly accommodate such fish to thrive.
This intolerance of us “laymen” becomes your justification for why we must in turn listen to your opinions.
As for the ‘argument from authority’ that is for those in don't understand the logical fallacy of it use to argue a point. You falsely assume you know about my experience and background to lump me in with those you clearly despise on here.
Those that have unfairly assumed the worse have been noted and I will watch closely to see if they have the integrity to change there opinions upon further consideration and time to judge myself differently.
I don’t particularly care really but I would never assume to know more than others and I am always open to learning more but will never be confined by those who have come before me and have experience. My personal back ground and formal education is in Science more accurately Evolutionary Biology and Zoology but that is irrelevant as I am here only to share and provide constructive feedback if possible.
By your logic fish keepers like Johnptc who keep multiple Arapaima in a square tank, that he had to build and isn’t 20.000G or rounded like Zoodiver believes they need to thrive, are negligent fish keepers because they don’t have the space/tanks planned before hand and can’t properly accommodate such fish to thrive.
Common, guys. It is generally agreed (or i understand it is) that gar need to be raised in a small set-up and gradually upgraded. Surely there is no point to put in a juvi 6" gar into a 500g set-up from the begining (way too difficult to feed if you ask me).
I raised my gar from 6' (divided tank) to gradually by himself then ultimately to my outdoor set-up over two years, I find that in the large set-up gar has some difficulty finding food (e.g. eels and other moving fish like snakeheads and walker cats) - probably that's why i no longer see that insane growth at the begining. Much as i would like to upgrade him to a pond it is pointless to see a small fish in a large pond (the pond idea is now shelved now that paimas are all dead from last cold spell)
As for the tank mates ... well, it worked for some and it has not worked for others. I dreamed of keeping gars with silver aros (after a first miss at the begining i abandonded the idea again ... puny spatula killed puny aro through a divider) ... then again others like TL has massive gar living with other massive fish (RTC, TSN, CK and aro etc)
I raised my gar from 6' (divided tank) to gradually by himself then ultimately to my outdoor set-up over two years, I find that in the large set-up gar has some difficulty finding food (e.g. eels and other moving fish like snakeheads and walker cats) - probably that's why i no longer see that insane growth at the begining. Much as i would like to upgrade him to a pond it is pointless to see a small fish in a large pond (the pond idea is now shelved now that paimas are all dead from last cold spell)
As for the tank mates ... well, it worked for some and it has not worked for others. I dreamed of keeping gars with silver aros (after a first miss at the begining i abandonded the idea again ... puny spatula killed puny aro through a divider) ... then again others like TL has massive gar living with other massive fish (RTC, TSN, CK and aro etc)
Ramesh;2841052; said:
although i deeply enjoyed your extensive rant(s) aimed at various folks, i think you are missing the main point. the combination you have would have been advised against by any regular member who participates in the gar forum...this wasn't any superiority complex or "high horse" or whatever else you've been rambling about, it would have been common sense.
saratogas (particularly jardinis, but also lei's) are some of the most aggressive arowana species and don't do well with gars in most cases. this has been proven time and again (and not just from my experiences, poly's experiences...but many other fishkeepers). the combination was an unwise decision. it is often times frustrating because these combinations (and others like them) are constantly advised against, but many people wait for the one person who said it worked, and think they are also the exception, and not the rule. then they come back and post something indicating they do fit the trend.
this incident could have been avoided if the fishes were not kept together. i realize they were both going for food, but this sort of thing won't stop. don't try to further anthropomorphose your fish by believing there is a "power shift" or anything like that. fishes generally act on instinct. gator gar will eventually shred and kill the arow, OR arow will eventually spook and cause gator gar to break it's back. once again, not a good combination.
and don't jump to such big conclusions that some of us hate hobbyists. we ARE hobbyists and wouldn't be "wasting" time on fish forums if we weren't interested in the hobby and didn't think we could both learn, contribute, and help. that's great about your formal training, but like you said, it has nothing to do with this discussion.
once again, hopefully you realize that the combination is not a good one, and the fish are soon separated. if they continue to bash each other up, please keep it to yourself as people here will have a pretty tough time being sympathetic towards you, and (i would hope) would feel sorry for your fishes and their situation.--
--solomon
Well said, Solomon. I would say something else, but there isn't really a need for it. It's just not a good combination and probably worse than other gar due to the aggressive nature and size of gators.
I have only had one similar incident with my F/S and jar except it was the jar that took a piece of food out of the gar's mouth. My jar is the exception to the rule in terms of aggression, but it's still going out of that tank as soon as my new tank is running (which should be this weekend). And as per advice, I am going to be taking out the piece of DW that is in the gar's tank. Enough about me.
I have only had one similar incident with my F/S and jar except it was the jar that took a piece of food out of the gar's mouth. My jar is the exception to the rule in terms of aggression, but it's still going out of that tank as soon as my new tank is running (which should be this weekend). And as per advice, I am going to be taking out the piece of DW that is in the gar's tank. Enough about me.
I'm gonna have to go with Ramesh on this one... I understand that you guys offer good advice on gars but poly in particular needs to offer advice for the sake of the fish and leave his arrogance at the door. His comments are really degrading when people need advice for the sake of their fish, maybe some sort of attention from the opposite sex may relieve his tension.
- Status
