going to try breeding clown loaches

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I suspect that we all already know the trigger, it is discussed frequently in this and all other threads.I believe it is ALMOST as simple as the peat etc in the water .................. BUT......

Maybe it is not the what but the how that matters. There are clues, again in this thread and many others, that show the way.... and also show WHY nobody has done it before.

I cannot try out my theory until I have clowns large enough / old enough to spawn but when I do I will VERY CAREFULLY drop the ph SUDDENLY.

If clowns migrate upstream to the 'lakes' (which sound more to me like peat bog flood plains) then the change from mildly acidic waters to peat laden very low ph water could be very sudden and they MAY be able to withstand that and be induced to spawn by it..... and it MAY be that the babies need low ph ( and prehaps the foodstuff it contains ) for a while to thrive.

Risky I know, but everyone is so wrapped up in this gradual change mantra that they dont risk it.


MAYBE, MAYBE, MAYBE
 
If only it was that simple .......




IMHO Andyroo has come the closest in understanding the what, and how it would take to pull this off. To which I would perhaps add a large whack of Ketapang or similar leaves (dry oak, birch, beech), just to give some earthy substance to the substrate. They also add shelter for smaller fish and/or fry, and add extra tannins to the water.



running on pure assumption:
Spawning seems to be associated with rain and/or rainy seasons, thus flooding. So set up a 1000Gal pond in your garage and set 5x Koralia #3s in a bundle along one edge shooting along one wall. Now plumb your roof gutters into the pond, probably with some sort of ball-valve so you can say yes or no. Put in 200Lbs of pool-filter sand, 500x ramshorn and 500x MTS and 100x mystery snails plus 30x small tetras, 50 cherry shrimp and some grassy plants. Now put in 20x 1' segments of 1 & 1.5" PVC pipe or bamboo. Rig up a big filter. Wait 6 weeks for it all to fester & bubble (toil and trouble etc....) then put your loaches in...
Let the ecosystem deal with water quality ('cept for top-ups) and use the rainwater for changes- so get an overflow to let extra out. Might want to wait for summer for that part...
Acid rain can be pH 4 & 5, so move closer to the oil-sands ;), and Bob's yer uncle.


For those that haven't already read the following section on breeding, this is worth a read.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Chromobotia&species=macracanthus&id=349


While the following article doesn't involve clown loaches, it describes the whys, what's, and how's of river fish, and how seasonal shifts & rainy seasons trigger spawning of fish such as clown loaches. This will answer most of the questions that some of you are seeking.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0537E/T0537E06.htm


SEASONALITY OF FEEDING

In temperate rivers and streams the onset of winter usually marks a drop in overall productivity of aquatic system and in the production of food organisms. Furthermore, the amount of food eaten by fishes is closely related to temperature thus a general cessation of feeding occurs in most temperate and arctic species during the winter months. In tropical waters the effects of temperature are clearly less pronounced but since Chevey and Le Poulain (1940) remarked on the fact that fish did not feed in the Mekong system during the dry season it has become generally accepted that feeding by fish in tropical rivers is likewise highly seasonal all over the world. In flood rivers the feeding cycle is clearly linked to two factors, firstly the food supply and secondly the population density. During the flood the rapid increase in food organisms, together with the wide dispersal of fish over an extensive biotope, favours intensive feeding. At low water, when the aquatic environment is contracted the fish are concentrated in a few permanent reserves of water and food sources are limited or exhausted, fasting therefore ensues. In the tropics this contrasts with the more or less continuous feeding of fish in lakes; although in some species inhabiting rivers closely allied to lakes such as the Lake Chad/Yaeres system the fish cease feeding at low water despite the adequate supply of food which would enable them to continue feeding at all times of year. In reaches of Indian rivers having little or no floodplain the seasonality of feeding may be reversed with more intense food intake during the dry season. Bhatnagar and Karamchandani (1970) attributed this to the food being washed away by the high current during the flood in the case of Labeo fimbriatus. Tor tor showed a similar pattern to L. fimbriatus although in this case Desai (1970) correlated the lessened feeding with breeding. It would seem that feeding stops just before and during breeding in flood and reservoir rivers alike. There are nevertheless seasonal differences in the availability of food which depend on the morphology of the river.

The intensive feeding by fish during the periods of abundance permits them to build up large stores of fat which are sufficient, not only to tide the animals through the following barren winter or dry season, but to elaborate gonadial tissue in preparation for breeding.

TIMING

Reproduction of fish in rivers tends to be highly seasonal throughout the world. This seasonality appears correlated primarily with two factors, temperature and flow, which in the temperature zones are more or less synchronous in that increases in flow result directly from the snow melt and increased precipitation associated with rising temperatures in spring. Approaching the tropics the influence of temperatures seemingly diminishes and the flood regime becomes increasingly important as the major regulator of breeding. Thus throughout the world the onset of reproduction of the majority of fish species tends to coincide with the earlier parts of the flood.


Some additional background on this geographical location.
http://www.wetlands.org/RSIS/_COP9Directory/Directory/2ID002.html


IMHO the pH factor isn't nearly as important as some here may feel.
It's definitely part of the equation, but there's much much more involved than simply tweaking the pH, and with regards to the biotope where clown loaches are found, there wouldn't be any sudden shifts in pH.

Many species of fish from this area such as Scleropages legendrei (Super Red Arowana) Betta sp, etc are bred & raised commercially on farms in Singapore where the local pH varies from 7.2-7.9. In the wild some of the small ponds & ditches where betta are collected can be as low as pH 3.5, yet they have been successfully bred in much higher pH for many years.

The rainy season brings cooler water temps (not warmer) and raises the pH in the peat bog areas. Perhaps not by a whole lot, but 8-12 metres of rainfall is certainly not going to lower it in areas that are already sitting at a pH of 4, or less. The fry have a much greater survival rate in this area due to the abundance & variety of food stuffs available during the rainy season, and the low density of predators compared to what is found in the main rivers. The shear size of the floodplain tends to thin the predator density out drastically. Their biggest predator at this time of the year is probably fisherman.

I spent most of my formative years growing up on a large river system that flowed into one of the Great Lakes, and every spring watched one species of fish after another make their annual spring spawning run.
The triggers, longer days (more light), a change in water temp, and most importantly, an abundance of food that allowed the females to come into spawning condition.


Not to rain on anyones parade, but IMO if you aren't prepared to set up a system along the lines of what Andyroo suggested earlier on in this discussion, I personally don't think that you have a hope in hell of pulling this off.

I would love nothing more than for someone to prove me wrong. :)
 
RD do you think that we really need a tank of this size as mentioned earlier in singapore they can't raise them in ponds. The rest of the setup sounds on the money. Does any one know for sure what cl's eat we all assume snails and such but maybe there is something in their diet we are miising. Our cl's will nibble on algae wafers and yet today we through in some snails and they would not touch them. I am also thinking they need more of a sudden change in ph and water temp as I assuming when the rainy season hits it pour down in buckets. If so this would suddenly drop temp and raise ph now I am not sure what would be to much of a raise in ph to be safe. The sudden current increase is easy enough and I can see now I had my plan backwards to what it should be. Maybe the hormone level is very high in the ponds that would be left at the end of the dry season thus spurring the spawn. Also seeing as they live so long maybe they do not spawn every year. This could be part of the reason only a few spawns have occured in captivity I mean how many people will keep a fish 50 years. I am still confused on the sexing of them how long till the tail hooks become noticble.
 
Bill - I think that you missed the point with regards to commercial farms in Singapore etc. It's not a case of they can't breed CL's, it's a case of they can't be bothered. Simple economics, why put a vast amount of time, effort, and $$$$, into breeding & raising a fish that at 3" can be purchased from collectors and/or their representatives for less than $1.00 US.

In Singapore a 3-4" CL can be purchased at wholesale level for less than $2.00 US. I've seen that size of CL on wholesale lists for $1.50. For comparison, a 3-4" African cichlid raised in a pond in Florida can run you twice that amount at wholesale cost.

Singapore exports approx $75 million worth of fish each year, with only a fraction of those fish actually being bred & raised on Singapore farms.
It's not that they aren't capable, it's simply a case of why waste precious space (it's a small country with limited commercial farm space) and money on a fish that you can already buy dirt cheap. It simply boils down to profit margins, and if a decent profit can't be seen at the end of the day then no one is going to invest in breeding/raising that species of fish.

A couple of years ago an associate of mine who has business ties in Singapore was sent a list from one of the tropical fish farms that had approx 50 clown loaches in the 10 inch range for sale. My landed cost in Canada would have been approx $50.00 per loach. Any idea how many years one would spend raising a CL egg/fry to 10"? There is simply no economic benefit for anyone in SE Asia to breed CL's. I suspect that the farms in Florida are already finding that out the hard way. Very few consumers are going to pay the same price for an F1 clown loach at 1/2-3/4", when they can buy a 3-4" CL for the same price at their LFS.
Most wouldn't even know what F1 stood for.

As far as diet, if you read that river report that I previously posted I think that it's fair to say that it isn't so much a case of what food these fish eat, but more a case of how much. It's the "abundance" of food that is the main factor. As long as one is feeding a high quality diet, in the proper quantity, I seriously doubt that diet will be any type major factor on whether they will breed in captivity, or not. The vast majority of tropical fish that have been bred in captivity for the past 50+ yrs have all been successfully bred on commercial pellets, and I have no doubt that the same could be accomplished with CL's. You have much larger hurdles to jump than dietary concerns.

FYI - "tail hooks" is not an accurate way to sex a CL. The link below is an article with another spin on sexing, but I have no idea how accurate it is. http://aquariumlore.blogspot.com/2008/04/sexing-clown-loaches.html
 
Very interesting the article tends to lean to the 7 inch maturity size again as well. I did miss that point about the production cost of raising them. This cost would increase if they do have to be 7 inches or more and I really have no idea how their farms are set up. I still can't quite understand why it is assumed such a large setup would be required to breed them though as they are supposedly mature at 7 inches and other 7 inch fish are bred in 90 gallon tanks. A person could do everything the same in a 6 foot 120 just scaled down. I mean the cl's seem very happy crowded together in a tank. From the last few articles and what not I am begining to think that wrong sex ratio or all the same sex loaches in the tank and the fact it may be years before they would breed again might be leading to the can;t breed in captivity theory. Do you think there is any chance that they are sexing the loaches pre shipping and only sending one sex for a time. If the 7 inch rule is true we still have a couple years of growing ahead of us so I will keep researching and see what things look like down the road but will probably give it a shot. Kind of wondering why you did'nt jump on those 10 inchers and resell them or would shipping loss have been very high.
 
Do you think there is any chance that they are sexing the loaches pre shipping and only sending one sex for a time.

No. There's really no incentive for a supplier to even attempt to sex CL's prior to being exported. But, sex ratio may indeed play a role in breeding them, at this point it's all pretty much speculation on everyone's part, including mine. Ditto to tank size required. If nothing else a larger system allows a larger group of breeding size fish, and hopefully a balanced mix of males to females. It also offers more stability, especially if one has to do major tweaks to their water chemistry.
But who knows, perhaps under the right conditions a 75 gallon would suffice.


As far the 10" CL's, for a starter they didn't know if they were collected in Kalimantan, or Sumatra, and I have no interest in Sumatran fish. I also have no interest in importing & selling livestock, so the whole thing really didn't appeal to me. As it was the entire group of 50 jumbo loaches were sold within 4 hrs, most likely to the same person/vendor.
 
A 75 is too little for 7" clowns. It's also well on the small side for a minimum school (N=5) of 5" clowns. They clump together in the videos because they are social and school, but that does not negate the fact that they need space to swim about. You'll also notice that in the videos they're hyperactive, moving all the time... when they're not asleep. Thus the need for space. Perfect husbandry, then kick at breeding (I fear i'm becoming a broken record on that). Keep 'em in the big tank, and get another big tank/pond for your breeding trials.
 
I agree, bigger is always better, but never say never.

http://www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artiklar/praktbotia/clown loach.htm

The original tank that the author brought his 6" female into condition (ripe with eggs) was under 200 litres. (50 gallons)

If I was going to attempt to spawn CL's in captivity I would certainly start with a tank larger than 75 gallons, but at the same time I hardly think that a 1,000 gallon system is required. :)
 
Considering how little anyone really knows about this species I personally think that the term perfect is open to individual interpretation.
 
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