got this message in my pm from whoever the hell this guy is...

[RD.]

I believe this is the site that Jason linked to previously, which quite frankly isn't obvious about anything.

http://ecuador.visahq.com/customs/

Stating that the exportation of "wild live animals" is prohibited could mean just about anything, in Ecuador. Ecuador has very specific regulations in place with anthing that has to do with aquaculture, and their fisheries, that much I do know. I personally couldn't find anything stating that there is a total ban on the collection or exportation of any/all live fish.

Considering how anal Ecuador is about their fisheries dept, one would think that detailed information about this rule/reg/ban would be easy to find.

 

[RD.]

**You can collect for research but must obtain a special permit, and I am fairly certain you must be a biologist to do so.

Similar situation currently in Mexico, but according to Juan Artigas collecting & exporting fish from Mexico is still doable - just more difficult now. Below is his response when I was enquiring recently about collecting & exporting cichlids out of Mexico, which currently has a ban in place.

Thanks Neil I was talking about a non scientific collecting permit if I
remember correctly. This does not mean fish can not be exported by a registered company if the species are not in a protection list (I have done it in the past). Scientific permits are a pain to get but can be
obtained, it normally takes several months though. Michi Tobler has got them so he could be of help with the details if necessary. In this case a person the government assigns (normally an academic) should go with you to get the fish. An aquarist on the other side, as far as I know cannot get a collecting permit to export fish, although there are sources (I cannot recommend any) where they can get them with a receipt (again from a registered company) that protects him to take them back across borders.
Cheers

This alone could be why no one is willing to currently collect and/or export cichlids on a commercial basis out of Ecuador (it's become a huge PITA), not because it can't be done.

 

[bomillyiam]

You're assuming that fish sourced in Ecuador aren't being shipped out of Peru...

Matt

Highly unlikely. On the coast there are 2 checkpoints when crossing the border bridge from Ecuador to Peru. One on each side. Who would risk perhaps their freedom trying to sneak fish from Ecuador into Peru if the fish are available in Peru? America may put a premium on one over the other, but that's hardly the case over there. Each country boasts a vast biodiversity.

Registered exporters who are home based in Peru rarely if never stock Festae. Most stock the more exotic Amazon River System species and Geophagus complex.
The only company(J2U) in the TFF registry who had Festae listed are suspended due to un-shipped orders. Their website is closed as well. Also found this interesting link regarding them.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?166371-ANYBODY-FAMILLIAR-TO-JUNGLE2U

Interestingly, J2U is where the Floridian Tumbes originated. Other likely sources were Ruinemans(Dutch), Dolphin Int'l(Cali), and vat/tank bred. The 3 listed suppliers require a wholesale license and $1000 minimum. It's not too difficult to advertise F0 and charge a meager $10-$15 when they can be mass purchased for as little as $1/ea.

 

[chefjamesscott]

You guys can correct me if I am wrong (which I do not think I am). Yet it has known to have happened :0)

The people I know who do trips for collecting down there have taken to the practice of having holding tanks where they have wild caught fish living and they harvest the fry from those fish and then ship them up as wild caught. I know they ship them up at very small size so that they can ship more per shipment. I also know some people who are in the transhipping trade who then hold certain species to beef them up for shipping to their customers.

These are billed as wild caught though technically they are not wild caught. Yet, how much closer to wild caught does one need to go.

To me it is no skin of my nose if the point of origion decides to ship fry from a holding pen versus shipping fry caught from the river or pond and bill both as wild caught.There is something to be said about sustainability of the trade which would make me favor the pen fry versus the wild caught fry. Though I do have a few wild caught in my possession at this moment.

Until the fish nazi's come to your house and waterboard you don't worry about their agent who felt the need to ramrod his opinion down your throat.

 

[chefjamesscott]

I will say this though. I know that many govt in various countries are snapping down on wild caught fish for a variety of reasons. One of which I think is so that some palms can be greased to get the permits, while others are valid for the protection of the biodiversity of their respective regions.

I was told by someone previously that some of the species that used to be available wild caught will never again be available and will have to be reproduced within the hobby if people are to have them. I will have to read the thread to see what others have had to say on this.

 

[Dan F]

I believe this is the site that Jason linked to previously, which quite frankly isn't obvious about anything.

http://ecuador.visahq.com/customs/

Stating that the exportation of "wild live animals" is prohibited could mean just about anything, in Ecuador. Ecuador has very specific regulations in place with anthing that has to do with aquaculture, and their fisheries, that much I do know. I personally couldn't find anything stating that there is a total ban on the collection or exportation of any/all live fish.

Considering how anal Ecuador is about their fisheries dept, one would think that detailed information about this rule/reg/ban would be easy to find.

^Pretty much my thinking.

There are a couple companies on the web that state that they export live fish from Ecuador - Tropical Live Fish Ecuador, Aquamundo Cia - but it is hard to tell if they are still in business.

 

[RD.]

Dan .......... I contacted Tropical Live Fish Ecuador a few months back, never have heard back from them. Also, their fish all appeared to be domestic farm raised fish, which in Ecuador falls under aquaculture, which is completely different from the collection & sale of their natural resources.

 

[RD.]

These are billed as wild caught though technically they are not wild caught. Yet, how much closer to wild caught does one need to go.

It's pretty simple, all consumers should expect to get exactly what they are paying for.

The only reason that anyone knowingly advertises fish that are clearly not born & raised in the wild, as wild caught specimens, is due to marketing - and ultimately greed. If not, they would simply sell them for what they are, F1.

I wish that people would quite making excuses for the A-holes in this industry.


Most vendors in the USA don't travel the world collecting their own fish. They have an import license, and they import fish that are collected, bagged, and shipped by others. A 6-8" wild caught festae would probably average out at $10-15 per piece, before shipping. Some of the smaller "wild" tropical species such as tetras, corys, etc can cost as little as 10 cents per piece, sometimes less depending on the quantity one is buying.

For anyone under the impression that buying F1 fish is going to save the wild population, in most cases it will have zero effect. Habitat destruction is typically the main cause for the loss of most species of fish in CA & SA, and this is all well documented. From raw sewage being dumped in to the water, to the damming of rivers, deforestation, water pollution from mining & agricultural run-off, etc-etc. Not to mention how many fish are removed from the various lakes/rivers by commercial fisherman each year, that sell these fish at market for human consumption. This hobby doesn't even make a tiny ripple in the potential loss of wild populations of fish in CA or SA.