I think the idea you are trying to get at is that pellets are a more nutritionally complete food source for most cases. Frozen or live can be good as long as it meets the dietary requirements of the species in question. Not too many frozen or live foods that wont bloat and or kill mbuna for example, unless they are vegetable matter
Heard this at my local LFS, is it true.
- Thread starter Roryf
- Start date
I have no issue with those that feel the need to supplement a nutritionally balanced food such as a premium pellet, but with the numerous options available it makes absolutely no sense to even SUPPLEMENT with a foodstuff such as mammal meat, trimmed of fat, and deveined, or not. There are far better options for fish, that contain a more balanced amino acid & fatty acid profile, and that are far more nutritionally geared towards the nutrient requirements of a fish, even those classified as carnivores/piscivores. Even Jack Wattley, the Godfather of Discus came to that conclusion years ago.
Using Discus as an example .......
I know that a lot of people feed discus beefheart, or beefheart mixes, and while it definitely causes good growth, in a very short time frame, in my opinion it also shortens the overall lifespan of the fish. Here's a link to a scientific paper that every discus owner/breeder should read.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
Of course if one is in the business of growing discus out for resale, then the main goal (at least in many cases) is to get the fish as large as humanly possible, in as short of time frame as humanly possible. I think that a lot of discus would have much longer lifespans if people weren't in such a rush to have 6 inch fish. A poll taken a few yrs back on simplydiscus had the average lifespan of a tank raised discus at 4 yrs, which IMO is pretty sad.
Jack Wattley started the beefheart craze a few decades back because it was a cheap form of protein, the fish took to it straight away, even wild caught discus, and the fish grew quickly. Since then a LOT of people have blindly followed his lead. I don't believe that Jack has any peer reviewed documentation that shows beefheart is an ideal amino acid (protein) source for any species of fish, let alone discus.
And even Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health.
The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.
Another good read on this subject by Heiko Bleher.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....ve_guide_to_Discus:_part_two&utm_content=html
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish beefheart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
Using Discus as an example .......
I know that a lot of people feed discus beefheart, or beefheart mixes, and while it definitely causes good growth, in a very short time frame, in my opinion it also shortens the overall lifespan of the fish. Here's a link to a scientific paper that every discus owner/breeder should read.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008
Of course if one is in the business of growing discus out for resale, then the main goal (at least in many cases) is to get the fish as large as humanly possible, in as short of time frame as humanly possible. I think that a lot of discus would have much longer lifespans if people weren't in such a rush to have 6 inch fish. A poll taken a few yrs back on simplydiscus had the average lifespan of a tank raised discus at 4 yrs, which IMO is pretty sad.
Jack Wattley started the beefheart craze a few decades back because it was a cheap form of protein, the fish took to it straight away, even wild caught discus, and the fish grew quickly. Since then a LOT of people have blindly followed his lead. I don't believe that Jack has any peer reviewed documentation that shows beefheart is an ideal amino acid (protein) source for any species of fish, let alone discus.
And even Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health.
The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.
Another good read on this subject by Heiko Bleher.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....ve_guide_to_Discus:_part_two&utm_content=html
Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish beefheart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.
All diets should be varied.
I have noticed this trend lately of keepers saying it is just to much effort to make my own fish food. It isn't too much effort to pay hundreds of dollars for monster fish, thousands of dollars for tanks and filters, then have to do 50% water changes weekly(or sooner) because of JDM and under developed aquaculture experience.
Just saying don't be afraid to handle a "Biohazard" (lol, uncooked meat) in your kitchen. It has been proven many times feeding mammal souced meats to fish is not the best for them, but by providing alot of variety in their diet is good. No one food source is going to contain every nutrient, vitamin, and fatty need of your fish. By giving the variety you are best able to care to a broad spectrum of needs.
........So whats a hour a month to prepare a fresh produced supplement food compared to the days spent online chatting about your fish?
I have noticed this trend lately of keepers saying it is just to much effort to make my own fish food. It isn't too much effort to pay hundreds of dollars for monster fish, thousands of dollars for tanks and filters, then have to do 50% water changes weekly(or sooner) because of JDM and under developed aquaculture experience.
Just saying don't be afraid to handle a "Biohazard" (lol, uncooked meat) in your kitchen. It has been proven many times feeding mammal souced meats to fish is not the best for them, but by providing alot of variety in their diet is good. No one food source is going to contain every nutrient, vitamin, and fatty need of your fish. By giving the variety you are best able to care to a broad spectrum of needs.
........So whats a hour a month to prepare a fresh produced supplement food compared to the days spent online chatting about your fish?
but why spend the hour at all when most pellets are complete and relatively inexpensive? Not saying you cant or should'nt make your own food if that's what you want to do, but you'd be hard pressed to do so as cost effectively as NLS, Xtreme or Hikari are presently doing. id rather spend the time watching my fish, but that's just me
I concur with the feed a varied diet logic, but the problem with the "wide variety" mindset is that variety is not a nutrient.
I could feed 10 different food sources, and still be feeding a nutrient deficient diet to my fish. On the flip side I could feed one very well balanced nutrient dense pellet food, that is more balanced, & more nutrient rich, than the 10 other foods combined.
And that's exactly what I do, not because making my own is too much effort, but because even with my knowledge of the nutritional requirements of fish, getting the correct "balance" of all of the various nutrients involved is near impossible to do on a kitchen counter.
Getting the essential mix of amino acids & fatty acids is the easy part of the equation, getting the correct vitamin & mineral balance is a lot trickier. You can't just add human vitamins, or any vitamins for that matter & call it good, unless you know the bio-availability of ALL of the nutrients being supplied, both from the raw ingredients themselves, as well as those supplemented.
If I asked those that make their own foods what the Vitamin C content (mg/kg) of their homemade food is at a post production level, most wouldn't have the slightest clue. And that's just one vitamin. What about the crude protein content, or even something as basic as the lipid level of the food? The vast majority of hobbyists aren't going to be able to determine any of this at post production levels, so it becomes a case of, by guess or by golly!
IMO it's not so much about what's natural, but about the nutrients that the fish require for optimum growth & health, and the overall digestibility of those ingredients. The goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago.
Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a Discus fishes natural diet than that, and today all of those ingredients can be found in a single commercial pellet. 25 yrs ago, commercial diets such as that didn't exist.
Fish are extremely resilient creatures, I've seen fish raised in conditions that were mind numb shocking, even to an old fart like myself who has seen a LOT over the years - but the fact that a fish grows, has decent color, or even spawns in a glass box, doesn't mean that it's receiving the correct balance, or a complete balance, of nutrients required for living in captivity.
I have a close friend in town who imports Asian aros from Singapore - a fish that will typically not hit pellets hard, if at all. So for his imported aros pellets are out, and in this case he feeds a "wide variety" of frozen foods, that are supplemented with vitamins/minerals. The "wide variety" ensures that a different mix of nutrients are being supplied on a daily/weekly basis, and the supplements help ensure that their diet is not completely void of other essential vitamins & minerals that may be lacking in their frozen diet. It's not perfect, but it's as good as it can get considering how damn picky some of these juvie aros can be that in Singapore have all been raised out on seafood.
Would he prefer to feed them a quality pellet food, absolutely! Asian aros are the only species of fish in his fishroom that don't eat pellets, at least not in any real quantity, but it is what it is.
In cases such as my friends arowana (some which sell for 5K+) it is imperitive that he feeds a "wide variety" of food, but with some of the premium pellets on the market today even he will admit that his "wide variety" of frozen vitamin & mineral enriched foods do not come close to providing the level of nutrients found in the pellets that he feeds. Below is a photo of one of his display tanks, the aro gets the frozen mix (with a few odd pellets here & there, when he's in the mood), the rays get pellets exclusively.
And most importantly ...... no mammal meat for these fish!
I could feed 10 different food sources, and still be feeding a nutrient deficient diet to my fish. On the flip side I could feed one very well balanced nutrient dense pellet food, that is more balanced, & more nutrient rich, than the 10 other foods combined.
And that's exactly what I do, not because making my own is too much effort, but because even with my knowledge of the nutritional requirements of fish, getting the correct "balance" of all of the various nutrients involved is near impossible to do on a kitchen counter.
Getting the essential mix of amino acids & fatty acids is the easy part of the equation, getting the correct vitamin & mineral balance is a lot trickier. You can't just add human vitamins, or any vitamins for that matter & call it good, unless you know the bio-availability of ALL of the nutrients being supplied, both from the raw ingredients themselves, as well as those supplemented.
If I asked those that make their own foods what the Vitamin C content (mg/kg) of their homemade food is at a post production level, most wouldn't have the slightest clue. And that's just one vitamin. What about the crude protein content, or even something as basic as the lipid level of the food? The vast majority of hobbyists aren't going to be able to determine any of this at post production levels, so it becomes a case of, by guess or by golly!
IMO it's not so much about what's natural, but about the nutrients that the fish require for optimum growth & health, and the overall digestibility of those ingredients. The goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago.
Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a Discus fishes natural diet than that, and today all of those ingredients can be found in a single commercial pellet. 25 yrs ago, commercial diets such as that didn't exist.
Fish are extremely resilient creatures, I've seen fish raised in conditions that were mind numb shocking, even to an old fart like myself who has seen a LOT over the years - but the fact that a fish grows, has decent color, or even spawns in a glass box, doesn't mean that it's receiving the correct balance, or a complete balance, of nutrients required for living in captivity.
I have a close friend in town who imports Asian aros from Singapore - a fish that will typically not hit pellets hard, if at all. So for his imported aros pellets are out, and in this case he feeds a "wide variety" of frozen foods, that are supplemented with vitamins/minerals. The "wide variety" ensures that a different mix of nutrients are being supplied on a daily/weekly basis, and the supplements help ensure that their diet is not completely void of other essential vitamins & minerals that may be lacking in their frozen diet. It's not perfect, but it's as good as it can get considering how damn picky some of these juvie aros can be that in Singapore have all been raised out on seafood.
Would he prefer to feed them a quality pellet food, absolutely! Asian aros are the only species of fish in his fishroom that don't eat pellets, at least not in any real quantity, but it is what it is.
In cases such as my friends arowana (some which sell for 5K+) it is imperitive that he feeds a "wide variety" of food, but with some of the premium pellets on the market today even he will admit that his "wide variety" of frozen vitamin & mineral enriched foods do not come close to providing the level of nutrients found in the pellets that he feeds. Below is a photo of one of his display tanks, the aro gets the frozen mix (with a few odd pellets here & there, when he's in the mood), the rays get pellets exclusively.
And most importantly ...... no mammal meat for these fish!
NLS would disagree lol they have done years of research and have scientific evidence to prove their food is superior to frozen and provides everything a fish needs period. at least thats what i read somewhere, i do a mix of pellets and frozen though including my own homemade food.
i just want to know how to put my background on. Sacrifce a virgin during a full moon and paint a black frog white. I give my fish walmart flake and they have lots of color. Moybe instead of food water quality. They are fish and you are going way to far. I was vacuming my 55 gal tank and had a fight with my clown pleco. I hadto brain him to make him move . Just enjoy your fish.
I stated that frozen foods are better in certain cases such as weaning off live or bulking up for example. I also stood by my recommendation of a staple diet of pellets and supplementing with other foodstuff throughout my replies. Not sure where you're getting my contradictory from....
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Post #18
Never heard of using Lamb hearts. Where do you get Lamb hearts. Beef heart is easy to get. As far as a color enhancer never heard that before. Beef heart or Lamb heart is high protein. High protein foods will always help color in fish. The problem with feeding animal protein is fishes gut does not digest this type of protein as well. Better to use a fish protein like shrimp which is well known to help color in fish. Any source with high Omega-3 will enhance fish color.
