How Important Is Bio Media?

[sostoudt]

First of all I would like to say this thread has opened my eyes quite a bit to filtration.It seems there are two schools of thought when it comes to this topic.Nc nutcase I've read many a post by you & you have quite a bit of experience.You are simply telling us about it.I consider it a hypothesis.It obviously works & works well for you.I totally get your method.
Ward 1066 you have 15 years of fish keeping experience.You use a different method than Nc nutcase all though it is more expansive & expensive it too obviously works & works well.
My point is this both methods seem to be sound.I don't think there is any one rite way to filter your aquarium just cheeper methods & more expensive methods.
I do however think that bio media is used by corporations to trick us into buying a product that we simply don't need the way they try to push.We do need our bio media just not 100$ worth every two weeks.I believe much of the bio media we use can be cleaned & reused.
Keep your eyes open & your mind.Do your research & you will be less likely taken to the cleaners by these corporations.

yep theres more then one way to skin a cat(should i still use this phrase even though i just got a kitten?), which is why there is so much debate over aquarium filtration, it gets much much worse in reef tanks.

i would assume you would need very little of the high surface area media but personally i dont buy any biomedia i cant see the holes in to check if there clogged.

 

[big dovii]

you must be joking. thats not a sump its a second display tank.

your sump only needs to be big enough to hold the equipment you use and so you dont have to top off too frequently. even with a fuge having more then 40 gallons is ridiculous(assuming you sump is a good shape) unless your in very large reef tanks

You've never seen a coral tank fuge/sump then LOL.

 

[sostoudt]

Bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate… once all of the ammonia & nitrite is converted… you can’t break down more… “Bio Media” is simply an inert platform that bacteria can grow on, if needed. It does absolutely nothing in and of itself to break down waste.

I have no clue what the “prevents clogging” is based on… and see no way for it to be valid...

playing devils advocate it may not be bacteria after that part of the nitrogen cycle that prevents clogging, but bacteria before nitrificating bacteria. the bacteria that break down the waste initially to create ammonia, yes its true fish naturally excrete it, but they excrete alot of stuff that isnt ammonia too, also dead plant matter. theres a slew of micro-organisms that create ammonia from that(ammonification). and i believe that solid waste would be responisble for the clogging(as it wouldnt make sense for any liquid like ammonia to cause clogging).

personally i think ive made similar observations, but im not confident enough to defend them in a very logic driven debate.

edit: i hope you some how include the ammonification aspect in your expirement, and not just spot dose ammonia, as i dont think it will be accurate since i entered this possible theory on clogging and sludge in the filter. btw your experiment will be the real tell i think on your arguement, because i notice you use real sand in your tank and that does have alot more surface area then gravel even if its compacted. i hope im not being to difficult lol

 

[Jgray152]

you must be joking. thats not a sump its a second display tank.

your sump only needs to be big enough to hold the equipment you use and so you dont have to top off too frequently. even with a fuge having more then 40 gallons is ridiculous(assuming you sump is a good shape) unless your in very large reef tanks

Thank you, someone else agrees with me.

I hope your realize that I was NOT suggesting the use of a 75 gallon sump for a 180 but only telling others that it has been suggested by others on this very forum by member AND mods for some reason and there is NO reason to use a tank that large. I don't even want to hear about increasing the system volume.

I am sure if you search you will find threads with my argument against this while mods and other members defend the "#1 sump rule" which I "think", if I remember is 1/3 the capacity of the aquarium which I find horribly wrong and out of bounds for any realistic approach.

 

[syndicate]

werd , I dont know how you can say its done properly if it spills on the floor "in normal operation"
Your acre of surface area does not impress me lol I get the point there big guy. I have 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and plenty of surface area in reserve. Not hard to do unless you make it hard on yourself like for instance oversizing a sump and loading it with an acre of surface area and then leaving it unfinished to the point where it overflows if not monitored.

obvisly u didnt understand me it doesnt need to be monitered at all i just asumed it would overflowin power outage... so i didnt drain water outta the sump straight up while wc and what do u know it didnt over flow bout 1/2 inch left also i never said it spills on the floor while operating just if the power goes out which ive now learned it doesnt

also in your other thread u praise heaps of filtraion yet hear u act like its bad

 

[Jgray152]

also in your other thread u praise heaps of filtraion yet hear u act like its bad your nothing but a yes man

werd , I dont know how you can say its done properly if it spills on the floor "in normal operation"
Your acre of surface area does not impress me lol I get the point there big guy. I have 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and plenty of surface area in reserve. Not hard to do unless you make it hard on yourself like for instance oversizing a sump and loading it with an acre of surface area and then leaving it unfinished to the point where it overflows if not monitored.

simmer down boys.

 

[tcarswell]

obvisly u didnt understand me it doesnt need to be monitered at all i just asumed it would overflowin power outage... so i didnt drain water outta the sump straight up while wc and what do u know it didnt over flow bout 1/2 inch left also i never said it spills on the floor while operating just if the power goes out which ive now learned it doesnt so no need to act like a tosser

also in your other thread u praise heaps of filtraion yet hear u act like its bad your nothing but a yes man

First of all im not a "yes" man that is ridiculous. Just because I choose to have 10X turnover or heaps of filtration im smart enough to realize its unnecessary yet I do it for water clarity all the while knowing that I could get by with less. Where did I say that heaps of filtration was bad? I just said at a certain point its redundant and only neccesary for water movement and mechanical filtration.
Look bro its an educational thread I cant help it if I keep my mind open and agree with the results reported.

 

[spaulding]

First of all im not a "yes" man that is ridiculous. Just because I choose to have 10X turnover or heaps of filtration im smart enough to realize its unnecessary yet I do it for water clarity all the while knowing that I could get by with less. Where did I say that heaps of filtration was bad? I just said at a certain point its redundant and only neccesary for water movement and mechanical filtration.
Look bro its an educational thread I cant help it if I keep my mind open and agree with the results reported. In fact you seem to be the only person being belligerent and posting rude BS calling me a tosser...


Its hard to retort because your grammar/spelling is so poor when you describe your sump that I don't even know what your intending to say. The only thing me and NC nutcase could make out from your original post was that you were talking about your sump overflowing and now its suddenly fixed. Funny timing considering you feel the need to defend your sump .

i have to agree with tcarswell here, i don't have a clue with what your trying to say with your sump. seem to be talking in circles a bit.

 

[Toby_H]

I do agree that we should each be taking a moment to proof read our posts to ensure we are making the point we wish to be making…

And I do hope we can all learn to “disagree without being disagreeable“… or at least without name calling

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to go attempt to calmly and politely write some disagreeing posts

 

[Toby_H]

have you ever used a canister filter?

Yes I have, I have a couple running right now and have used several others in the past…

I dont feel that I am giving bad advise.

Of course not, knowingly giving bad advice would be malicious and I am definitely not accusing you of being malicious… I am suggesting that you are making some improper assumptions or over looking some details that puts your approach at filtration a bit off mark with the aim of efficient filtration… and with your understanding a bit off mark naturally your advice would be as well…

Please note I am not simply saying you are wrong… I am explaining in great detail some aspects of your method that are faulty. It’s not a matter of ego or of ‘I’m right and your wrong’… It’s a matter of refining our understandings and discussing facts as adults, which I think we can both do…

When I started keeping africans over 15 years ago I used to jack around with my canisters at least monthly and I think it did more harm than good

Which shows back then you were making mistakes. We all know it is possible to do filter maintenance frequently without doing our system harm… provided you understand filtration…

I understand you are citing this as a mistake of your distant past… but you did so in a way that suggested the mistake was frequent maintenance, which is simply not true…

Most people you talk to or at least I have talked to, maybe rinse their efimech every 6 months if even that. efi mech is basically biomedia as is everything inside the canister. Some people dont even run sponges or prefilter pads in them and they still work great.

I agree most people do infrequent maintenance on their canisters.

This approach was properly established by those who knew enough to prevent physical waste from being taken in by the canister. Primarily by the use of prefilters and intakes placed logically to reduce physical waste intake.

Provided your canister is not taking in waste, I have no argument that it should be cleaned frequently, and I fully condone not doing so…

Suggesting everything inside a canister is “Bio Media” is sketchy. While from one angle I would have to agree… as every surface in an aquarium is prone to housing bacteria and could thus be called “Bio Media”… But per the common definition of the term “Bio Media”, it cannot truly be stated that ‘everything in a canister is “Bio Media” ’

Last on this quote, while it is true that not everyone runs them with prefilters or pads… they will only “work great” if they are otherwise set up to not take in physical waste. More to come on this point...

As long as you do regular water changes, there is no way getting around that, you will be fine. Water changes remove more than just nitrates, they remove liquified fish waste,,, think urine. there are protiens and all kinds of stuff in fish water. Even the finest floss wont remove that.

I’m all about water changes… and yes they remove far more than nitrates, and far more than “liquid waste”… think hormones. ;-)

Ill take a canister filled with ceramic rings over one filled with sponges, filter floss any day.I bet if you ask around, you will find there are a lot of canister users that dont mess with them every month. maybe we should start a poll

I agree you are right… but let’s not follow the herd just because the herd is moving…

Let’s discuss this logically and scientifically and see what is efficient and what is not… Let’s see what is logical and what is not… Let’s see what is being wasteful and what is not…

solid wastes will liquify and thats where the biological media takes over, neutralizing the toxins.

This is utterly untrue… Solid fish waste does not all break down into liquid… A portion breaks down chemically to be taken away by water as a pollutant which can be removed in water changes… But there is still a portion that will remain as solid waste…

If fish waste broke down into pure liquid… why do any of us need to clean any of our filters???

As I have suggested previously, your filtration methods are based on some misunderstandings, and this is an obvious one…

mechanical filtration removes the solids only and the hobbiest removes before they become liquidified and overtax the biological filtration. but if you have massive amounts of biological your system is never overtaxed.

I agree with the first sentence…

The second I do not. Very few freshwater tanks have “Biological Filtration” that removes nitrates… nitrates are the end result burden that leaving physical waste in your “Mechanical Media” causes…

Second point here… which I’ve made multiple times and you continually ignore… “Bio Media” is nothing more than porous material… Using “Bio Media” as “Mechanical Media” allows physical waste to clog those pores, drastically reducing the single ‘benefit’ that “Bio Media” in a canister offers…

Therefore, using “Bio Media” as “Mechanical Media”, and not cleaning it frequently, is rendering it almost useless…



I completely understand at this point you are frustrated with me and have long ago stopped reading my words with an open mind. Please review it to realize I am not criticizing you, I am explaining in detail everything I am opposing… and if you wish to debate in return please do so by logically countering the logic I am using…

In conclusion, I have no judgment of you on how you filter your aquariums… but I see many suggesting to new people they need to do things, that they do not need to do… I see members failing to explain the logic behind filtration to new people, and instead just tell them how to spend their money… I see members guiding new people based on misconceptions and misunderstandings… I see people answering questions that they should be asking, not answering…

I do not mean to point you out Ward, but you have pushed yourself forward in the thread where I have been making this precise point. There are many many many members of this (and other) forums who are just as guilty, many of them probably more so…