my dovii will take the freeze dried krill and bloodworms over frozen but my jag and midevil prefer frozen, guess its all a matter of preference
How many different foods are you feeding?
- Thread starter jagster
- Start date
I asked a few questions that seemed pretty reasonable about NLS, u answered them, and also seemed to take offense to the fact that I said NLS lacks a variety of foods... while I have stated that I do believe their food is the best sold in the U.S. many times and that it's my staple diet for my male jag, that doesn't change the fact that they have quite a few "different" formulas that are pretty similar. I'm sure they're not the only fish food that does that either, just pointed it out. Do a search of past food threads... I have on a few occasions and find it hard to find anything that doesn't have your NLS vomit all over the place.
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JRT ...... Just for the record, the only thing that I took offense to was your whiney ass attitude. Again, if you don't want to read what I have to say on any given subject then put me on your ignore list. Problem solved!
Re: Freeze dried or frozen. It's freeze dried all the way for me. Used to be a frozen food guy, but made the switch some years ago as freeze dried is a cleaner (in terms of mess), more convenient storage and feeding product as far as I'm concerned. As mentioned above, with freeze dried you don't pay for a high % of water or the % of waste bits that rinse away or go into your tank. At most some freeze dried foods may have a bit of dust at the bottom of the container. Most of the general stuff I read says freeze dried is as good to better than frozen for nutritional quality, though when you when you attempt to read some of the more technical food biochemistry literature the picture seems to get a bit cloudier.
What I do know is without any exposure to frozen foods my fish like freeze dried just fine and I've found benefits in specific circumstances to certain freeze dried foods (I've used mysis as a growth food for EBJD that weren't growing, used freeze dried bloodworms to encourage wild angelfish to spawn, for example), though generally and with a good quality staple it's simply a treat, not a necessity imo.
@JRT8783-- Other people have asked a similar question as to how much actual difference there is between different NLS formulas. My general understanding is most (with some exceptions) NLS products have the same basic ingredients, but in different proportions. You may recall NLS started out with one formula, period. But in recent years they've been expanding their products. I'm not in a position to discuss their theory or philosophy of fish food as an insider, but I've read enough, including a PFK interview of Pablo Tepoot several years ago, to observe that from the beginning their contention has been they had a basic combination of ingredients that would benefit just about any ornamental fish. IMO, like any of the other opinions and theories on fish food, someone just has to evaluate that for themselves, based on personal experience, reviews, research of the ingredients, or whatever other criteria they deem useful. It's a fact of life that on a forum thread you're going to get varying opinions based on widely varying degrees of actual knowledge, experience, personal preference or prejudice, etc.
Also, there's a big difference between aquatic algae (or other aquatic matter, like spirulina, that are not technically algae, but commonly called algae) and commercial terrestrial starches, grains, legumes, brewing by-products, etc. Or a difference between the seeds, fruits, bugs, etc. that a lot of Amazon fish consume at certain times of year and the above commercial products.
As far as the remaining issue of feeding carnivores vs. herbivores in a tank. Aside from the above comments on general protein requirements being in the same ballpark for most freshwater fish, ime most fish are basically omnivorous in an aquarium, no matter their feeding habits in the wild. I realize there are some exceptions. Same with how, when, and where fish feed. Most fish in a tank adapt to when and where the food is, whether time of day, surface vs. bottom, hunting prey, feeding on algae, aquatic plants, detritus, or whatever else vs. pellets, flakes, etc. Again, with some exceptions. But that's just something you have to manage in your own tank according to what works for you imo, whether feeding a single food with good overall nutrition or trying to be more specialized with how, what, and when you feed.
I don't think there's necessarily one right answer.
As far as what nutrients from their feed a fish actually uses. Whether in the wild and eating their natural foods in their own habitat or eating pellets in a tank, there's going to be either superfluous or excess nutrients a fish doesn't use that ends up as waste. That's just normal metabolism and biochemistry as an animal processes and breaks down food into it's useful constituents and passes on the rest. And that's where, in my opinion, the points come in about not overfeeding in general, not overfeeding protein or inferior or unbalanced sources of protein, etc. To some reasonable degree, not being a scientist or keeping my fish in a laboratory, I'd like my fish to get what they need without a lot of excess junk.
Not saying all this is cosmic truth. Just my approach to it. But as far as what they're adapted to eat in the wild, we're talking about all the variations and oddities of body shape, jaw and mouth structure, vision, smell and other senses, configurations of digestive organs, etc... yet somehow we can keep all these different fish in a glass box and feed them pellets, flakes, or whatever else-- and if we do it reasonably well they can live reasonably healthy and long lives. But, obviously, the very nature of keeping fish in our homes involves some compromises in feeding and habitat.
What I do know is without any exposure to frozen foods my fish like freeze dried just fine and I've found benefits in specific circumstances to certain freeze dried foods (I've used mysis as a growth food for EBJD that weren't growing, used freeze dried bloodworms to encourage wild angelfish to spawn, for example), though generally and with a good quality staple it's simply a treat, not a necessity imo.
@JRT8783-- Other people have asked a similar question as to how much actual difference there is between different NLS formulas. My general understanding is most (with some exceptions) NLS products have the same basic ingredients, but in different proportions. You may recall NLS started out with one formula, period. But in recent years they've been expanding their products. I'm not in a position to discuss their theory or philosophy of fish food as an insider, but I've read enough, including a PFK interview of Pablo Tepoot several years ago, to observe that from the beginning their contention has been they had a basic combination of ingredients that would benefit just about any ornamental fish. IMO, like any of the other opinions and theories on fish food, someone just has to evaluate that for themselves, based on personal experience, reviews, research of the ingredients, or whatever other criteria they deem useful. It's a fact of life that on a forum thread you're going to get varying opinions based on widely varying degrees of actual knowledge, experience, personal preference or prejudice, etc.
Maybe I should clarify. When you look into it, reading the studies they're doing looking for plant substitutes for marine proteins, etc., it's not even about that. For most fish, no matter what they eat in the wild, there are issues with some of the various terrestrial grains, starches, legumes (like soy) that might be substituted for aquatic protein sources. This is a whole other subject with a raft of literature on it in aquaculture and science sources. So my comment about certain high protein pellets wasn't exactly a scientific point, just a bit of sarcasm regarding some of the products for carnivorous fish that have a number of products like starch, soybeans, brewery by-products, etc. in their ingredients.
Also, there's a big difference between aquatic algae (or other aquatic matter, like spirulina, that are not technically algae, but commonly called algae) and commercial terrestrial starches, grains, legumes, brewing by-products, etc. Or a difference between the seeds, fruits, bugs, etc. that a lot of Amazon fish consume at certain times of year and the above commercial products.
As far as the remaining issue of feeding carnivores vs. herbivores in a tank. Aside from the above comments on general protein requirements being in the same ballpark for most freshwater fish, ime most fish are basically omnivorous in an aquarium, no matter their feeding habits in the wild. I realize there are some exceptions. Same with how, when, and where fish feed. Most fish in a tank adapt to when and where the food is, whether time of day, surface vs. bottom, hunting prey, feeding on algae, aquatic plants, detritus, or whatever else vs. pellets, flakes, etc. Again, with some exceptions. But that's just something you have to manage in your own tank according to what works for you imo, whether feeding a single food with good overall nutrition or trying to be more specialized with how, what, and when you feed.
I don't think there's necessarily one right answer.
As far as what nutrients from their feed a fish actually uses. Whether in the wild and eating their natural foods in their own habitat or eating pellets in a tank, there's going to be either superfluous or excess nutrients a fish doesn't use that ends up as waste. That's just normal metabolism and biochemistry as an animal processes and breaks down food into it's useful constituents and passes on the rest. And that's where, in my opinion, the points come in about not overfeeding in general, not overfeeding protein or inferior or unbalanced sources of protein, etc. To some reasonable degree, not being a scientist or keeping my fish in a laboratory, I'd like my fish to get what they need without a lot of excess junk.
Not saying all this is cosmic truth. Just my approach to it. But as far as what they're adapted to eat in the wild, we're talking about all the variations and oddities of body shape, jaw and mouth structure, vision, smell and other senses, configurations of digestive organs, etc... yet somehow we can keep all these different fish in a glass box and feed them pellets, flakes, or whatever else-- and if we do it reasonably well they can live reasonably healthy and long lives. But, obviously, the very nature of keeping fish in our homes involves some compromises in feeding and habitat.
So neutrino, when you offer your fish something other than pellets, what is it? You are very knowledgable on the subject and I'm curious as to what fresh/ freeze dried foods you offer.
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Well, that's all relative
. It is my thing to do a lot of science reading in general, and since I keep fish it's come to include some fish science and aquaculture reading over the years. But I'm not a professional in the field and if you start getting much into the real biochemistry of it, it gets over my pay grade pretty quickly. Basically, I'm pretty simplistic about feeding. I've found a couple of commercial foods that have given me good results and those are my staple. I've seen some evidence of better spawning with my wild angelfish with freeze dried bloodworms as a regular treat. I've seen some evidence that freeze dried mysis (or other freeze dried shrimp, but especially mysis) can help a finicky or less robust fish, like EBJD, grow better. I've found fresh greens, like romaine lettuce, help keep a severum from shredding my plants-- but only temporarily
. I've found any fish I've had, including a 'piscivore' like my Kapampa fronts, love thawed, peeled peas, but I'm not certain from what I've read how good they are as a regular food for fish (a bad idea in combination with soy ingredients according to one study). I'll occasionally feed my fish the odd bug (cricket, Asian beetle, etc.) but otherwise generally don't feed live foods, other than the occasional cichlid fry from my own tanks-- used to feed live brine shrimp pretty regularly, but hard to come by these days where I live. Oddly, I've tried market shrimp and fish occasionally with my Kapampa, and they don't go for it... weird, because other people find they love it... could be mine would react differently with more exposure, but freeze dried works for me anyway.
In any case, I'm just a hobbyist with some experience and some reading and with my own preferences for the particular fish I keep. But I do like to comment when I think there's information in aquaculture or science sources that might add something to a thread. My thing is, except for a few sources I respect in the hobby, I don't take anyone's opinion for much and prefer to do my own independent reading or research-- or I don't mind experimenting to see what works for me with a particular type of fish. So, I'm not intending to act like an authority on the subject, just adding information I think is useful.
