How many different foods are you feeding?

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
RD. said:
I think that a lot of hobbyists confuse growth, with optimum health, and that isn't always the case. That, and even the some of the most carnivorous warm water tropical species kept in captivity typically never require more than 45-50% protein for maximum gains in growth, even as small juveniles. Adults, and semi adults require much less.

Some of the largest carnivores fish raised in captivity, fish that can exceed 10 ft in length when adults, such as some of the sturgeon species, are generally fed diets that are under 50% protein when fry/juvenile, and closer to 40% when adults. Yet we have those with cichlids that max out at approx 12%, that live their entire lives in a glass cage, that feel their fish require 50+% protein on a daily basis, even as adults. It's just not logical, but it seems to be the "Monster" fish mentality.
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Agree. There seems to be this idea that piscivore/carnivore automatically equates to very high protein in their diet, and herbivore or algae eater automatically equates to a low protein diet... yet some of these same hobbyists will feed certain "high protein" pellets to their carnivore/piscivore where much or most of the protein actually comes from terrestrial plants that they don't digest very well-- go figure.

Meanwhile, many algae species are actually high in protein and lipids, not to mention the tiny critters living in the algae, biofilm, etc. that many 'herbivores' are feeding on, not necessarily the low protein diet we might imagine. Different feeding strategies in the wild have more to with the source from which a species is adapted to derive its protein requirements than automatically categorizing what their exact requirements are.

Growth is also not all about protein. The missing ingredient in a lot of these discussions is the effect of lipids on growth. A number of growth studies determine not only protein but lipid requirements and sometimes even specific sources of lipids for optimal growth.
 
Mike - who knows what your friend is seeing, or isn't seeing, in the growth of his fronts? I can't comment on what somebody may or may not have seen or said to a friend about his fish, waaaay too many variables involved. Hormones would not be involved in Northfin foods, other than the natural growth hormones found in any food that incorporates fish or fish meal.


Neutrino - very true about lipids, especially when one looks at most carnivores that typically cannot produce large amounts of enzymes such as amylase to break down carbohydrates and utilize them as a source of energy. In that case the only energy sources left are fat, and protein, so if the fat levels don't meet the fishes metabolic requirements protein is then used. Clearly that scenario would not produce optimal growth.
 
neutrino said:
Agree. There seems to be this idea that piscivore/carnivore automatically equates to very high protein in their diet, and herbivore or algae eater automatically equates to a low protein diet... yet some of these same hobbyists will feed certain "high protein" pellets to their carnivore/piscivore where much or most of the protein actually comes from terrestrial plants that they don't digest very well-- go figure.

Meanwhile, many algae species are actually high in protein and lipids, not to mention the tiny critters living in the algae, biofilm, etc. that many 'herbivores' are feeding on, not necessarily the low protein diet we might imagine. Different feeding strategies in the wild have more to with the source from which a species is adapted to derive its protein requirements than automatically categorizing what their exact requirements are.

Growth is also not all about protein. The missing ingredient in a lot of these discussions is the effect of lipids on growth. A number of growth studies determine not only protein but lipid requirements and sometimes even specific sources of lipids for optimal growth.
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So if carnivores/piscivores have a hard time digesting plant matter, and herbivores have a hard time digesting protein and more meaty foods, how is NLS able to have the "perfect" amount of both in their regular formula for both to be able to thrive? There is such a big difference in nutritional value of plant/algae matter vs meaty foods that it's extremely hard to believe that a fish can eat 1 type of food, say NLS, and basically choose what nutrients they want to utilize. Just seems that it'd be more complicated than just feeding herbivores less and carnivores more of the same food. In the wild, I'm sure a herbivore could easily find a meaty snack if it wanted... likewise for carnivores and plants/algae, yet they both will generally ignore the stuff they don't want even if they could eat it easily.

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RD- Your right about that! What I really was asking is if you think NLS has the same/more/less growth potential as any other food assuming all the proper husbandry is applied? Or will foods with Fillers accelerate growth quicker?
 
Mike - Any reasonably decent quality food will get the job done as far as growth goes. I wouldn't worry about growth in your fish.


JRT - There is no such thing as the *perfect* diet for any species of fish kept in captivity. In fact, the vast majority of ornamental species of fish kept in this hobby have never had any type of long term feed trials performed, with regards to optimum nutrient requirements most haven't been researched at all.

You're also making assumptions, such as herbivores having a hard time digesting protein. Who says that herbivores have a difficult time digesting protein? Most can digest & assimilate the amino acids found in animal protein just fine, and as previously stated the excess amino acids are simply excreted. Most of these fish were born to adapt, and in the wild almost all species of fish are opportunistic feeders.
 
This is really the bottom line.

Other than not maintaining good water quality, the best way to ensure that fish don't "reach their potential" (whatever that means) is to stuff them full of food and boil them at high temperatures. Sure they'll get big quick...but they'll also die early.

Matt

RD. said:
Mike - Any reasonably decent quality food will get the job done as far as growth goes. I wouldn't worry about growth in your fish.


JRT - There is no such thing as the *perfect* diet for any species of fish kept in captivity. In fact, the vast majority of ornamental species of fish kept in this hobby have never had any type of long term feed trials performed, with regards to optimum nutrient requirements most haven't been researched at all.

You're also making assumptions, such as herbivores having a hard time digesting protein. Who says that herbivores have a difficult time digesting protein? Most can digest & assimilate the amino acids found in animal protein just fine, and as previously stated the excess amino acids are simply excreted. Most of these fish were born to adapt, and in the wild almost all species of fish are opportunistic feeders.
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dogofwar said:
This is really the bottom line.



Other than not maintaining good water quality, the best way to ensure that fish don't "reach their potential" (whatever that means) is to stuff them full of food and boil them at high temperatures. Sure they'll get big quick...but they'll also die early.

Matt
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Agree!!
 
RD- Im not worried about my fish growth, not in to that mine is bigger then yours thing!
In my local area this seems to be the new thing (NLS dosnt grow fish) but X brand does. Gets annoying trying to prove them wrong. must be kinda how you feel?

Thanks guys , some great info as always!
 
Mike - At this point I have nothing left to prove to anyone. There will always be a brand x that is supposedly better than the next brand. It's the way of the world.
 
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