Hybrid discussion from Mo's thread....

[Mr.Firemouth]

Dog of war,
No one has ever been asked to leave the ACA. Or form their own Association.
My comments above are for those interested in creating a Hybrid "Standard" need to start somewhere. It would take people with that knowledge to form a group and establish those standards.

Whether you line breed(as I do my FM's and Angels), Or you keep hybrids you are still welcome as a member of the ACA if you wanted to join.

You may of misunderstood me.

Here in the USA, there is no "Standards" established for Hybrids.
Nothing tells what they are, where they came from, who bred them, how they bred them, what to call them, and there is no way to classify them other than to lump them together.

A set of "standards" devised by a specific "Hybrid Association" could lead the hobby to those primary answers. Then the ACA could have a better idea of how to address and possibly one day judge a hybrid.

For now, I would like to see the ACA explain clearly why they are against Hybrids and do some educational demonstrations at the conventions. That would be their first steps.

Hope this made it more clear.

 

[dirtyblacksocks]

I think if you hop over to Cichlid-forum you can talk to either Pam Chin or Barbie about why the ACA is against hybrids and they'll have a pretty clear response - especially Pam Chin, who is one of their more involved members.

 

[dogofwar]

Thanks for your thoughts and clarification, Rich!

I agree that no one is asking flowerhorn and line bred fishkeepers to leave the ACA.

It's more about whether people who enjoy flowerhorns feel comfortable/accepted at the ACA: whether they join (as part of attending the annual convention...or to get the magazine) and then become disillusioned / turned off.

Currently the ACA - and many influential members - are "against" flowerhorns (and by extension the people who keep and breed them)...when many flowerhorn keepers (especially the ones who bother to attend / engage with the ACA) are extremely conscientious, responsible fish keepers.

Instead of focusing on the classification and nomenclature, show classes, etc, etc. of flowerhorns and other hybrids, I suggest that the organization focus on development of "guidelines for responsible fishkeeping" that includes sections both acknowledging the existence of hybrids and line bred fish in the hobby (as "man made cichlids") and describing ways that both wild-type and man-made cichlid keepers can be responsible fishkeepers.

I would argue that an irresponsible wild-type fishkeeper can have a much greater negative impact on the captive conservation of cichlids than a flower horn keeper can. The difficulty finding verifiably "pure" Parachromis, Vieja, and others has more to do with people selling crosses of different species / varients of closely related wild-type fish (as pure) than someone crossing them with flowerhorns, red texas, blood parrots, etc.

A step that needs to happen before any kind of hybrid/flowerhorn stuff at a convention is for the ACA leadership to acknowledge that conservation isn't a "flowerhorn vs. non-flowerhorn" issue but a "responsible fishkeeping vs. irresponsible fishkeeping" issue....and that there is a place for "man made cichlids" (flowerhorns, line bred, etc.) in the hobby if, like wild-type fish, they're kept and distributed responsibly.

Without this preliminary step, it will be a disaster of mis-guided emotion, anger, and blame...at the flowerhorn folks who volunteer to step forward and bridge the gap...

 

[Aquamojo]

Thanks for your thoughts and clarification, Rich!

I agree that no one is asking flowerhorn and line bred fishkeepers to leave the ACA.

It's more about whether people who enjoy flowerhorns feel comfortable/accepted at the ACA: whether they join (as part of attending the annual convention...or to get the magazine) and then become disillusioned / turned off.

Currently the ACA - and many influential members - are "against" flowerhorns (and by extension the people who keep and breed them)...when many flowerhorn keepers (especially the ones who bother to attend / engage with the ACA) are extremely conscientious, responsible fish keepers.

Instead of focusing on the classification and nomenclature, show classes, etc, etc. of flowerhorns and other hybrids, I suggest that the organization focus on development of "guidelines for responsible fishkeeping" that includes sections both acknowledging the existence of hybrids and line bred fish in the hobby (as "man made cichlids") and describing ways that both wild-type and man-made cichlid keepers can be responsible fishkeepers.

I would argue that an irresponsible wild-type fishkeeper can have a much greater negative impact on the captive conservation of cichlids than a flower horn keeper can. The difficulty finding verifiably "pure" Parachromis, Vieja, and others has more to do with people selling crosses of different species / varients of closely related wild-type fish (as pure) than someone crossing them with flowerhorns, red texas, blood parrots, etc.

A step that needs to happen before any kind of hybrid/flowerhorn stuff at a convention is for the ACA leadership to acknowledge that conservation isn't a "flowerhorn vs. non-flowerhorn" issue but a "responsible fishkeeping vs. irresponsible fishkeeping" issue....and that there is a place for "man made cichlids" (flowerhorns, line bred, etc.) in the hobby if, like wild-type fish, they're kept and distributed responsibly.

Without this preliminary step, it will be a disaster of mis-guided emotion, anger, and blame...at the flowerhorn folks who volunteer to step forward and bridge the gap...

Very well said. I concur 100%.

 

[neoprodigy]

wow great read!

 

[neoprodigy]

I see so many people here on MFK that want the ACA to openly accept the "hybrids" into the organization. Yet here on MFK we have yet to do this ourselves. Our exclusion of a hybrid sub forum in the cichlid forum, but claim it's OK becuase we do have a Hybrid forum. Right like there is any logical reason for grouping flowerhorns and tiger muskies together in one forum.

You guys that are for change, maybe work on changing it here first.

Really, the membership follows the structure that has been set. You have never seen what happens when a new member unknowingly posts his cichlid hybrid in the cichlid forum? There's even valid threads regarding the safe keeping of a female cichlid from another species male cichlid and people flame and call for the removal of the thread.

Why start with ACA when we have more then enough work to do here?

What change? Monster Fish Keepers (as a whole) accept all hybrids. which is why we have a hybrid forum to cater all hybrids since day 1.

as for flaming that is base on individual point of view. as we know we cant please everyone.

as a fish keeper and admin of this site. i encourage educating new hobbyist about hybrids. as hybrids is part of the fish hobby like it or not.

 

[shamrock]

Hdeuce-you make an awesome point with the pit bull. However, it is easier to tell the difference between a pit bull and Staffordshire Terrier than a FH and Trimac-it is more common to see a fish mislabeled than a dog-not only that I personally only purchase dogs with papers-AKC-you can't go the LFS and ask the owner for the fishes family tree-LOL.

 

[shamrock]

Think about most pet stores that sell dogs without papers is a risk-so you can cover yourself by only buying a dog that has papers. This is not so with a fish. Hey PetSmart manager does that Festae come with papers? LOL.

 

[dogofwar]

"Hey PetSmart manager does that Festae come with papers? LOL."

Probably makes sense not to sell Festae from Petsmart as F1...or use Petsmart stock as the basis for a species conservation program. But that's just me

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

You guys have to be careful not to make the same mistake the ACA has...

What you want are "standards and guidelines" to follow.
Not pedigrees or rules!

Mo asked in the "Members Only" section of the ACA what about hybrids, he got a question..."Define hybrids"?

Are you freakin kidding me!!! Define Hybrids? C'mon!
They know what a freakin Hybrid is!!!!
They just wanted to add the linebred mess to the drama!

You could literally discuss speciation and wild hybrids like Mo collected vs. the making of a Firemouth/convict cross(Firecon)!

These are the things that hinder progress!!! You could talk until you were blue in the face!!

It takes a real player to step up and change things for real.

Someone taking action to form these standards really will make a difference.
6 smart people with Internet computer skills and a solid grasp on the hybrid scene could flip this rather rapidly!

1. Form an Association and register it!(in the state you live in)
2. Adopt Roberts rules of law
3. Form a website(fancy art work can come later)
4. Form a discussion forum
5. Focus on categories of judging, naming(use a gallery album generator), Hybrid history(so people know what they are getting into), How to bred hybrids correctly to form a fish that meets an established standard, and standards!(what crosses with what to make what kind of fish and how it is supposed to look so that mutations are culled!)

Then go from there. Just keep involving more people! Look at what MFK has become! Look at ReefCentral! It all starts somewhere with an idea, then a plan, then lots of help from the hobby itself!

I am a member of the ACA and other clubs! But I am always about the hobby! I promote it at every chance! When I meet new people at work, I say "Let me ask you an important question...Do you have a fish tank?" If they say no they are in for quite a day of my ramblings! LOL