Hybrid discussion from Mo's thread....

[darthodo]

I was at the ACA convention in Atlanta this July. I saw some of the most beautiful fish in the show and for sale. Matter of fact, if I didn't go to the convention I'd never see many of these beautiful species. The quality and size of the specimens there was great.
I joined the ACA because I keep cichlids, period. I enjoy the Buntbarsche Bulletin I get, the trading post, and the conservatiohelps efforts. I want to learn as much about the cichlids I keep and being a member of ACA helps me do that. I wish I contributed more to the knowledge base, but I'm a selfish user of the knowledge and experience I must admit. I hang out with Ken Davis some (its probably more like I aggravate Ken Davis) b/c he works in my department in Georgia and I crave the information and the fish he sells. I'm very lucky to have that resource, and I'm going to support the ACA because of him, and Mo Devlin, and Jeff Rapps, and Rusty Wessel, and Juan Miguel, and all the others that I've met, talked to, and asked questions of. I don't have a big opinion about the flowerhorns other than they don't interest me. However, I don't like the fact that when folks posts a picture of a nice trimac that some folks jump in and call it a flowerhorn. That pisses me off and is the only thing that really gets my goat about hybrids.

 

[danz]

What a great and long read!

I am a strong hybrid supporter, and have been very involved with the progression of the hobby for the past 2 years. The hobby is growing at an extremely fast rate and the day for local FH supplies is coming soon and when that comes they will be like blood parrots in stores. I do feel the ACA should recognize hybrids but I dont think every cross should be recognize. They should only recognize hybrids that can be differentiated from their originated species so we dont have the trimac mistake again.

I know its not going to change the mindsets of existing ACA members overnight but 2 people can agree to disagree but the bond of the fish hobby should be what binds. I think must hybrid hobbyist are tired of lurking in the dark but in the end flowerhorns as well many of the popular hybrids are cichlids.

 

[Aquamojo]

Has anyone mentioned that Neo is running for the board of trustees of the ACA?

Let's focus the conversation on a point by point approach:

What does "accepting" hybrid fish into the club mean?

 

[nuth88]

Has anyone mentioned that Neo is running for the board of trustees of the ACA?

Let's focus the conversation on a point by point approach:

What does "accepting" hybrid fish into the club mean?

Mo, I love ya brother, but what Neo does has no bearing on this issue, and if it does for these people, that would be sad. I would support Neo for ACA, BOT, he has good ideas, we have shared some of them Privatley, (not ACA or anything, just generalities) he has given me advice on my site, and some of you know where that is, but the Hybrid issue is way bigger then any of us.

To the second question: "Accepting"?

IMHO~ Accepting is That Change will happen no matter what man or woman decides personally. None of us really matter in the grand scheme, the GCCA or the ACA would be here without me, Life is about Change, if (a) clubs are to evolve, they should be open minded to change that has over the last 25 years of my life (27 now) in fishkeeping, what was once taboo, is now (mostly) accepted. If FH's and Red Texas were something that was a couple year fad, yes, I would not support inclusion, yet they have proven to have staying power.

Mo is someone who I hold in very high regard, and do find it very refreshing that he has taken this charge. I will also say that I am a very active member of my local club and Rally (who I consider a friend) speaks the truth, I have heard the comments, and seen the "intollerance" with my own eyes/ears, and IMHO, I believe that we should love the animal, your not playing god if your texas male and your salvini female get together, it happens, if you have a community tank, it happens, If you go out and sell the as a Texini, well your just a money grubbing richard, but if you happen to keep a few to yourself or some trusted friends, and like the combo, great. If it happens a lot, maybe after showing staying power, a Texini, would be accepted. But not a 1 or 10 time over a few years thing.

But I will say that the intollerance is just as prevalent in the FH's circle, as it is with some ACA members, I was disgusted by the fact that some of the FH enthusiasts who were happy/rejoicing over a bad collection trip some had taken and made light of it, "You damn Cichlid guys got what you deserved", the whole thread was sick and I have not visited that site again. The intollerance that Rally speaks of is everywhere, not just within the Cichlid clubs.

The AKC has seen that there is no stopping what may happen (but there it is more for cash reasons) and accepted the Cockerdoodle or whatever the heck it is. They evolved, I would hope that the ACA (of which I am a member) would do as well.

Does the AKC recognize my 1/2 Labrador 1/2 APB? They they have created classes for the most common hybrids. My dog just is not a common hybrid. If the ACA could do that, who know what could happen. I actually like the thought of a focus group. Come up with some most common classes, It could work.

I like Hybrids, I have kept Hybrids, I know where they come from, and who they are, I don't feed all "Bastard" fry to my pike, but I do feed some, If I have a freddie/jag mix, yep they most likley will become food, but the same goes for pure bread rabbit like convicts.

I applaud you in your effort of "Factfinding". Let me know if I can offer you any help.

Chris Karnuth
Nuth88
Nuth88@Comcast.net

 

[bigspizz]

I think the short and sweet of it is this...Hybrid keepers are to be respected. A way needs to be found to bring both "sides" of this hobby together. Their fish may be undesirable, but their knowledge is priceless, and usefull..Sorry to sound so simple, and obvious...

 

[Hdeuce]

alot of people have valid arguments. one in particular caught my attention. someone compared them to the akc dogs. in my oppinion if a hybrid breed can establish its own heredity through reproduction within its breed it can become a purebred species. perfect example is pitbulls. a pitbull is now considered a purebreed, however it was created through mixbreeding a bull dog with a terrier repeatedly and then breeding those offspring with each other. after years and years a pitbull is its own breed.

 

[Aquamojo]

Mo, I love ya brother, but what Neo does has no bearing on this issue, and if it does for these people, that would be sad. I would support Neo for ACA, BOT, he has good ideas, we have shared some of them Privatley, (not ACA or anything, just generalities) he has given me advice on my site, and some of you know where that is, but the Hybrid issue is way bigger then any of us.


Nuth88@Comcast.net

Just so I'm clear...it was just a conversational point. It meant nothing else.

Dog are not hybrid. They are line bred.

 

[DiXoN]

although i am not American and don't even have any cichlids at the moment and will most likely never be a member of the ACA (its a long trip) i do think you need to include hybrids into the club in some way, you may not need to show them trade them or even condone them but you do need to discuss them and include them as they are here to stay.
if the goal of the club is passing and gaining knowledge then all aspects of the cichlid keeping hobby needs to be recognized.

 

[gomezladdams]

I have nothing against hybrids and have seen many flowerhorns I would love to own.I dont believe the ACA needs to create a flowerhorn or hybrid class,from my understanding it goes against everthing they stand for.Including hybrids would mean a change in basic philosophy of the group and it doesnt seem like that is wanted by most of the members,especially the more known ones.I think starting an AFA is a fantastic idea,would love to attend a show and auction for that!

 

[cichlaguapote]

I can assure you the ACA is not going to die.
It's finances and memberships are at all time highs.
The funds for the Guy Jordan research grants are in 6 figures if I understood the meeting correctly.

This is not about survival of the club at all! This is about the future of the clubs shows and the hobby itself. Both posters saying that the club will die out are very ill-informed of the current status of the club. Also, attendances at the Annual conventions since 2006 have been very high(over 500 people) and the conventions made money.

I nor Rallys I think meant it will die soon.. but lets face it ACA is comprised of alot of older members. There needs to be someone to carry to torch.

It was my thought you should try and capture as many younger members as possible and try to grow as much as possible. Make at least the attitude of the club more about all cichlids, and less about don't mix yours with mine.

I don't know if the ACA keeps going the way it's going in every aspect if you will have those enthusiatic younger members that you yourself said you are seeking.

Rallysman and Cichlagaupote, I think you are both missing out on great experiences that have not yet happened for you guys. You should try some club involvement. BAP awards are always cool, article submissions, mentoring, auctions(LIVE), friends WITH fish! here is sooo much that I am unable to describe the benefits as each person experiences something different.

ACA offers alot of cool things. But as someone said it's the outside image of the ACA that needs redone for me.

I respect how positive about the ACA you are, you really do a good job of trying to bring in new members. But sometimes you can point out all the good and still the one bad gets magnafied.


As Levi said I think this dead horse is beat.. After 7 pages I've come to the conclusion that I don't think either side is going to be convinced here or change their opinion.