Hybrid discussion from Mo's thread....

[danz]

Has anyone mentioned that Neo is running for the board of trustees of the ACA?

Let's focus the conversation on a point by point approach:

What does "accepting" hybrid fish into the club mean?

There are 2 directions the accepting can go.

1) ACA to acknowledge and record the most common strains of hybrids such as flowerhorns (Zhen Zu, Kamfa, KAMALAU, Golden Base), parrots and red and super red texas. Since these are very established strains of hybrids and typically do not use new pure blood and are line breed.

2) Create a hybrid branch AHA that would promote hybrids in a responsible way with naming conventions, care, resell, euthanize as well catalog the history of the common strains. Also keep a catalog of know hybrid crosses but only recognize multiple generation crosses that deviate looks wise from pure species as well use a proper name to not confuse the fish. Create a scientific naming convention for naming flowerhorns as well offer competitions based on the Indonesia judging standards.

 

[Aquamojo]

There are 2 directions the accepting can go.

1) ACA to acknowledge and record the most common strains of hybrids such as flowerhorns (Zhen Zu, Kamfa, KAMALAU, Golden Base), parrots and red and super red texas. Since these are very established strains of hybrids and typically do not use new pure blood and are line breed.

Acknowledging that they are "out there" isn't a big deal. Everyone knows they are out there. I would imagine that "established strains" is open for debate. But by whom? Who would you call on to be the expert opinion. With the club there is a plethora of scientists and professional aquarists that could identify species. Who gets the call to be the FH expert?

2) Create a hybrid branch AHA that would promote hybrids in a responsible way with naming conventions, care, resell, euthanize as well catalog the history of the common strains. Also keep a catalog of know hybrid crosses but only recognize multiple generation crosses that deviate looks wise from pure species as well use a proper name to not confuse the fish. Create a scientific naming convention for naming flowerhorns as well offer competitions based on the Indonesia judging standards.

Forming a separate organization (AHA) wouldn't work as we are talking about an already established club. The same applies to fish already recognized by the club (for example NADA - North American Discus Association) Having an organization like an AHA would be a great start, but it would require folks already in that part of the hobby organizing and doing the leg work.

Regarding a "scientific naming convention" ...the club doesn't do that for cichlids. That comes from the actual describing of the cichlid species by scientific sources. If it comes down to including them in a show, there would have to be a discussion on how they would be judged. As I stated before...cichlid fishes are judged based on the norm for their species. I guess a norm could be established for some of the fish you are mentioning...but not following the existing guidelines set up by the club.

 

[dogofwar]

Whether people keep wild-type cichlids, flowerhorns / hybrids, line bred cichlids, or a combination of any of these, RESPONSIBLE FISHKEEPING is what keeps captive blood lines pure and wild habitats protected.

The mere existence and (properly-labeled, responsible) dissemination of any or all of these has little or no negative impact on conservation, pure lines of rare type fish, etc.

So if the problem is IRRESPONSIBLE FISHKEEPING / PEOPLE, then address the problem...instead of laying it at the feet of people who keep flowerhorns (RESPONSIBLY).

Just so that this thread won't go down the "technicality" route of line bred vs. hybrids (dogs vs. flowerhorns, etc.), can we all agree that "different from nature" is "different from nature" and that line bred fish are quite different from what's in the wild...and hybrid fish are different from what's in the wild?

And - for arguments sake - agree that fancy discus, livebearers and bettas, etc. are hybrid fish that are widely available in the hobby? And EBJD, balloon rams, german red peacocks, fancy angels, and lots and lots of "line bred" fish are quite different than what's found in nature.

 

[Aquamojo]

As Levi said I think this dead horse is beat.. After 7 pages I've come to the conclusion that I don't think either side is going to be convinced here or change their opinion.

You are already wrong. I changed my opinion. I can tell you that without a doubt there has NEVER been as much discussion on the topic as there has been in the last six months.

But you are entitled to your opinion...and not to change it.

 

[Aquamojo]

Whether people keep wild-type cichlids, flowerhorns / hybrids, line bred cichlids, or a combination of any of these, RESPONSIBLE FISHKEEPING is what keeps captive blood lines pure and wild habitats protected.

The mere existence and (properly-labeled, responsible) dissemination of any or all of these has little or no negative impact on conservation, pure lines of rare type fish, etc.

So if the problem is IRRESPONSIBLE FISHKEEPING / PEOPLE, then address the problem...instead of laying it at the feet of people who keep flowerhorns.

Just so that this thread won't go down the "technicality" route of line bred vs. hybrids (dogs vs. flowerhorns, etc.), can we all agree that "different from nature" is "different from nature" and that line bred fish are different from what's in the wild...and hybrid fish are different from what's in the wild?

And - for arguments sake - agree that fancy discus, livebearers and bettas, etc. are hybrid fish that are widely available in the hobby? And EBJD, balloon rams, german red peacocks, fancy angels, and lots and lots of "line bred" fish are really different that what's found in nature.

Yup. Man made...not hybrid....and that means line bred.

 

[danz]

Acknowledging that they are "out there" isn't a big deal. Everyone knows they are out there. I would imagine that "established strains" is open for debate. But by whom? Who would you call on to be the expert opinion. With the club there is a plethora of scientists and professional aquarists that could identify species. Who gets the call to be the FH expert?

I could provide you with a list of names with people who have been in the FH hobby in the USA for a long time and are very knowledgeable as well could get support and feedback from Indonesia flowerhorn breeders and Competition Operators. I would imagine the scientist and fh experts to get together and iron out the details of the fish.

Forming a separate organization (AHA) wouldn't work as we are talking about an already established club. The same applies to fish already recognized by the club (for example NADA - North American Discus Association) Having an organization like an AHA would be a great start, but it would require folks already in that part of the hobby organizing and doing the leg work.

OK just an idea A few key members in the USA hobby has been tossing around this idea for sometime but would be nice if ACA would back it and almost be a parent group. I honestly see this as the best option so there is that buffer between members since this is such a passionate topic and some members feel it would be shoved down their throats.

Regarding a "scientific naming convention" ...the club doesn't do that for cichlids. That comes from the actual describing of the cichlid species by scientific sources. If it comes down to including them in a show, there would have to be a discussion on how they would be judged. As I stated before...cichlid fishes are judged based on the norm for their species. I guess a norm could be established for some of the fish you are mentioning...but not following the existing guidelines set up by the club.

With current competitions each fish is judged on its strain traits, I could provide the current judging sheet used in indo competitions for a base if it ever gets there.

 

[nuth88]

Mo~

Not to further the Dog vs Fish thing, Line bred, Hybrid, whatever it may be, my Lab/APB is here by chance, granted it was in nature, but I would be very happy that if the ACA, if, they were to reconize hybrid that they would use the AKC as an example and set guidelines for such. IE: Red Texas = what?

That was my point..My Bad for not being clear, lot of points to try to hit without writing a book....

dogofwar~

"Just so that this thread won't go down the "technicality" route of line bred vs. hybrids (dogs vs. flowerhorns, etc.), can we all agree that "different from nature" is "different from nature" and that line bred fish are different from what's in the wild...and hybrid fish are different from what's in the wild?"

Nicely Put...Thank you.

danz~

"I could provide you with a list of names with people who have been in the FH hobby in the USA for a long time and are very knowledgeable as well could get support and feedback from Indonesia flowerhorn breeders and Competition Operators. I would imagine the scientist and fh experts to get together and iron out the details of the fish."

To a point, who would provide that detail, and how could the information be validated?

Great Discussion..........

Nuthman~

 

[dogofwar]

Thanks Nuth and Mo for the agreement that both line bred and flowerhorns are both "different than nature"... we can try to reconcile why (some) people are violently opposed to hybrids (flowerhorns) but enthusiastic about line bred fish next

As for judging: There are flowerhorn competitions in Asia....so there must be judging standards. Just like there are judging standards for fancy bettas...and fancy goldfish...and colored koi. They're probably a heck of a lot more rigorous than the ACA uses for wild-type fish! If I was still in Sacramento, I'd ask the guys at JoJo Aquarium (awesome place for - primarily - discus and flowerhorns). They have several trophies in their store from flowerhorn competitions in Malaysia.

I really don't think a flowerhorn competition in the ACA show, however, is a logical next step. It will be too controversial, for a variety of reasons. Maybe an exhibition (i.e. examples of fish with no competition) with a panel discussion that includes flowerhorn experts and leadership from the ACA: a learning and interchange opportunity. Kind of like discus people and (other) cichlid people

I'm really enjoying such a constructive discussion on this topic!

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamojo
Acknowledging that they are "out there" isn't a big deal. Everyone knows they are out there. I would imagine that "established strains" is open for debate. But by whom? Who would you call on to be the expert opinion. With the club there is a plethora of scientists and professional aquarists that could identify species. Who gets the call to be the FH expert?

I could provide you with a list of names with people who have been in the FH hobby in the USA for a long time and are very knowledgeable as well could get support and feedback from Indonesia flowerhorn breeders and Competition Operators. I would imagine the scientist and fh experts to get together and iron out the details of the fish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamojo
Forming a separate organization (AHA) wouldn't work as we are talking about an already established club. The same applies to fish already recognized by the club (for example NADA - North American Discus Association) Having an organization like an AHA would be a great start, but it would require folks already in that part of the hobby organizing and doing the leg work.

OK just an idea A few key members in the USA hobby has been tossing around this idea for sometime but would be nice if ACA would back it and almost be a parent group. I honestly see this as the best option so there is that buffer between members since this is such a passionate topic and some members feel it would be shoved down their throats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamojo
Regarding a "scientific naming convention" ...the club doesn't do that for cichlids. That comes from the actual describing of the cichlid species by scientific sources. If it comes down to including them in a show, there would have to be a discussion on how they would be judged. As I stated before...cichlid fishes are judged based on the norm for their species. I guess a norm could be established for some of the fish you are mentioning...but not following the existing guidelines set up by the club.

With current competitions each fish is judged on its strain traits, I could provide the current judging sheet used in indo competitions for a base if it ever gets there.

For me this is the most significant post!!!

The ACA is a club made up of volunteers! These people sacrifice their time for our benefit! I have seriously considered a run for the BOT, but I am not always available and would not want my vote to be dismissed by work schedules.

Being volunteers is the grandest part of the ACA and this hobby as a whole!!!
The money grubbing Richards are those that are here for profit(Walmart ex.) and could care less about the hobby!

You have to consider 9 people sitting in a room as the voice for nearly 1200 and having to weigh the thoughts and considerations of all those supporters. Furthermore, these people have real jobs and this is a hobby to them also. So who has the time to do these things, form these committees, make these decisions?

The answer is all of US!!!! It us to band together and make a real commitment. I am the BOD of SEASL a SW local club of St.Louis. I help manage a $5K+ budget that needs to gather meeting rooms, get speakers for meetings, arrange raffles, liason to LFS's for their support of the club, deal with manufacturers, handle frag swaps, handle vendors, provide content, and monitor and provide a website for the club. There is 3 of us that work in unison to accomplish these goals. It in itself is very demanding of my resources.

I am a person of my word tho,(to the best of my abilities, afterall your word is really all you got that no one else can take away from you!) I have committed to a 3 year term to help promote my local club. Sometimes that cost me $$$, most of the time it is time!

This hobby is what WE make of it!
I would love to see Hybrid enthusiast take those necessary steps to commit to a 3 year term of "let's see what we can do" and devote that time and energy into making the change!

Change will not happen on its own. It takes special people willing to take the necessary steps to form and regulate a club to establish guidelines. Any one of you can do this. That step forward will be the steps needed for change to come.

My commitment to the hobby is and always has been to help others enjoy what I enjoy! That is why I try to help others and never ask for anything in return. There are literally less than 200 people in the world that have really significantly impacted this hobby over the years. Most of their work came from technological improvements on the hobby and from authoring books on the biology of the fish we keep so that we may all be successful.

If a leader stepped forward with a plan to educate, set standards, set breeding procedures, set forth a book of common names depicted by which species were used, etc. then something very positive could take place! It could also happen right here on MFK!

Before you disregard my statements I want to present an example....
In the SW world there is a coral that has many color morphs and is known as Zooanthids and Palythoas. One site took the step to naming these with a photo album and the rest is history. Thousands of SW reefkeepers use these names as do many LFS's to identify, label, and price these corals. Some are very slow growers and do poorly in captivity and hence garnish high $$$'s.

Here is the site...
http://www.zoaid.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=15

This site started with names of Zooanthids and Palys and now includes all forms of special coral color morphs. It is the first place people seeking an ID go! If he can do this for SW enthusiasts than so can a small group of Hybrid advocates!

If standards were in place it would be much easier for the ACA to consider the inclusion of Hybrids in their own class.

Someone asked who shall do it? My answer is any one of you. It does not need to be a scientist that forms a set of standards and guidelines. It just needs to be presented in a well thought out series of protocols and guidelines and then be accepted by the community for inclusion.

Seriously consider what I am asking of you guys. Make a commitment to this passionate issue.

Hybrids are bred internationally, for names sake I would recommend the "International Hybrid Association". This way members from around the world could contribute!

This would give much more substance to the Hybrid debates world wide and help the ACA in it's decisions as NO infrastructure is available right now that is just a click away.

 

[dogofwar]

...so should those who are into line-bred cichlids leave the ACA and form the American Line Bred Cichlid Association?