Hybrid discussion from Mo's thread....

[dogofwar]

Thanks for your thoughts darth! I've been keeping fish for 25+ years (and cichlids for almost all of that), so I've seen the hobby evolve and change over the years. I started with Bettas and have seen this controversy play out as well. That's why the IBC is so focused on ethics and conduct and hasn't splintered into a bunch of smaller factions.

Many people think about the hybrid/flowerhorn issue on a primarily philosophical level: they're "bad" because they're different from what's found in nature.

But there's a HUGE LEAP between the existence of flowerhorns and other fish that deviate from what's found in nature (EBJD, line bred peacocks, fancy discus, fancy livebearers, baloon rams, etc, etc.) and the DISAPPEARANCE of "pure" (i.e. able to be traced back to a wild population) lines of fish in the hobby....and an even HUGER LEAP between the existence of flowerhorns, etc....and the DISAPPEARANCE of "pure" fish in the wild.

On a pragmatic level, engaging with people who keep hybrids (and - probably - other cichlids) makes more sense than driving them away. I know that a lot of fancy betta breeders also enjoy and are concerned about conservation of the wild-types. Keeping / breeding fancy fish like flowerhorns and caring about conservation of wild-type species (in the hobby and wild) aren't MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Pushing people who are interested in both (or are interested in flowerhorns but don't yet know about conservation) away isn't a good practical strategy. Kind of like wondering why kids who have no access to sex education that talks about birth control or condoms...tend to not use birth control/condoms.

For example, if the ONLY people who have pure Lyonsi are hybrid breeders (and they're not), then shunning the ONLY people who have these fish isn't going to solve the problem. Bringing them into the fold will make available these fish for wild-type breeding projects...as well as help the less ethical in the hybrid community understand the dangers of mis-labeling / dumping bad flowerhorns as trimacs, etc.

 

[mbunafishkeeper]

i have no major problem with hybrids, aslong as they are identified easy enough and are not destroying other population. i dont think they should be in the ACA because its hardenough getting some of the purebreeds and selling hybrids wil make this harder...

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

One thing being discussed at the ACA is the age of the group and the lack of younger members that are enthusiastic. All of us will get to be old fishkeepers one day, but many of the ACA diehards are indeed over 40 years old.(Not all, but a lot ).

I think the growth factor is to encourage younger, enthusiastic people to carry the torch of the ACA to future generations. Who will be the next Ad Konings, or Stuart Grant?(Or whoever else will lead us in our fishkeeping goals!)

This is much bigger than just a FH class, IMO.
For one, there is nearly 1200 paid, supporting members that are very quiet as they wait and listen. Then there are a few outspoken types( I may be guilty of this ) that try to get discussions going.

What is not beneficial to the ACA is non-members weighing in. People need to join, and then present their case if they feel strongly enough. Joining has benefits, but be a member and having a voice has much more weight than just being a hybrid proponent.

As far as the ACA having an impact on your LFS, well that is true to an extent. It is not the job of the ACA to dictate to LFS the ethical sales of the fish they sell. But it is the responsibility of the ACA to guide their membership in what is ethical fishkeeping.

People continue to feel that if it is unethical to breed a FH, then they must be unethical or unmoral people. This is not the case. This is really more of what you feel is right and wrong in fishkeeping. But none of this would make some one immoral or unethical because they bought some FH's. We really need to keep emotions out of the discussion and discuss whether or not Hybrids should become an industry standby like Angelfish for example.

Here is something to think about. The Walmart "Mixed Africans". How did these fish become "Mixed"? Was it lazy fish farmers not keeping strains pure?
Was it from accidental breedings that created a colorful fish?

Here is one more thing to chew on, What if Walmart or other Chain Store is the "ONLY" supplier of cichlids in your area. Are you stuck then to buy just these fish? Do you not get a choice of whether or not you want "Mixed Cichlids"?

Sure there is Aquabid and others Online, but not everyone uses them. And what if that is the alternative? To buy fish Online and wonder what you will get until they arrive.(Alive or dead?)

There are large scale implications to these discussions. These discussions are about the future of the ACA and the Hobby. Sure nothing will be decided tomorrow, but it all starts somewhere doesn't it?

The current argument against Hybrids is that they contaminate the gene pool for future stocks of wild type fish. They also interfere with "CAPTIVE CONSERVATION PROGRAMS". These seem like logical objections to the increase in availability of Hybrids.

So what are the arguments for keeping Hybrids and making them more available and including them in shows? Because they are pretty? What are 3 valid reasons to support Hybrids? 3 Reasons besides to make a buck, get someone new into the hobby,(I got into this hobby because my Dad and friends of mine kept fish. NOT BECAUSE OF A FH!), so someone tell me why Hybrids are a good thing....

This should get interesting LOL

 

[dogofwar]

I think that the reason that people keep flowerhorns and other hybrids is the same reasons that people keep other fish. They LIKE them: the colors, the personality/behavior, the size, etc.

The thing I find ironic is that the flowerhorns provide everything that wild type guapotes do...and more...which is why they were developed. You like big, mean, cichlids with some red and blue sparkles and hump on its head? Well a flowerhorn is a bigger, meaner, more colorful one...with a really big hump on its head. They're intentionally super-natural. And that's why fishkeepers - new and old - buy them by the droves.

Realists freaked out when impressionists hit the art world. And impressionists freaked on surrealists...and modern art, photography, performance art, etc. Tastes change. It doesn't mean that the others aren't art (and should be kept out of museums). Or as beautiful as nature itself

The existence of impressionist art doesn't impact the existence of realist art.

Wal-Mart, which probably sells more fish and aquarium supplies than any other single business in America, could care less about the purity/proper labeling/care of the fish that it sells. It is a business that seeks to maximize profit. Which is what it's supposed to do.

That's not something that the ACA could impact (unless it called for - and received - agreement from its 1,200 members to buy NOTHING from Wal-Mart until they quit selling fish).

 

[cichlaguapote]

What is not beneficial to the ACA is non-members weighing in. People need to join, and then present their case if they feel strongly enough. Joining has benefits, but be a member and having a voice has much more weight than just being a hybrid proponent.

Yeah but if a majority of the ACA wants no part of FH's and that disgruntles you.. why join and pay money to fight a losing battle when no one in the ACA at least the board wants to change.. Unless it's a case of if you have 1300 pro-FH members vs. 1200 anti-FH, and then the majority rules without the board having any say what so ever.. That's the only way it makes sense to join just to have an opinion heard..

Yes I'm aware money goes to a good cause. But it's like me paying money join a gym that dislikes me so I can try and convince them to like me. Doesn't all around make sense..

You always want people to join.. but people get turned off by higher up ACA members talking or posting negative FH related comments. Word travels fast. All it takes is one person to hear it, then it's 10, then it's 100, then it's 1,000.. Before you know it your running around trying to figure out how to increase growth and get younger members.

So what are the arguments for keeping Hybrids and making them more available and including them in shows? Because they are pretty? What are 3 valid reasons to support Hybrids? 3 Reasons besides to make a buck, get someone new into the hobby,(I got into this hobby because my Dad and friends of mine kept fish. NOT BECAUSE OF A FH!), so someone tell me why Hybrids are a good thing....

This should get interesting LOL

If you got in the hobby 25 years ago I would assume FH's weren't really around yet.. lol

FH's are still cichlids.. A cichlid is a cichlid.. A fish is a fish.. while I won't ever say there has to be a class for them, the ACA should work with the board and other members not to be so hasty about them. If I have alot of pure cichlids and FH's.. Do you think I'm going to join the ACA with the beyond negative reputation that your senior members put out about not liking FH's? Probably not.

ACA need to treat people who you want to buy your product(you're pushing a product believe it or not..) like clients.. And leave negative opinions at the door..

 

[cichlaguapote]

Really, the membership follows the structure that has been set. You have never seen what happens when a new member unknowingly posts his cichlid hybrid in the cichlid forum? There's even valid threads regarding the safe keeping of a female cichlid from another species male cichlid and people flame and call for the removal of the thread.

Why start with ACA when we have more then enough work to do here?

Most of the membership follows by example.. It's not because MFK seperates the two groups.. It's because of immaturity and the thought that it's ok to do that someone set forth by people who are soooo mad at hybrids. Believe it or not senior members, senior hobbiests play a big role in that.

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

At the Annual ACA Board meeting I would say Half of the BOT was open to hearing discussions about hybrids. I do not believe the BOT is as closed minded as you may think.

As with any public arena, negative comments will happen.
This isn't about courting the membership numbers as much as it is about what will the hobby be and how will the ACA fit into the hobby in the future?

Obviously, people shouldn't slam others because they don't like the same things, they should disagree peacefully with respect for one another.

I was at the convention and did not hear of people diss'n hybrids. I was not present at every conversation, but seen no big discussions about hybrids in a negative tone.

BTW, There is another revealing thread at the "ACA members only" section of the forum that follows this up and the split was pretty even as it was in Mo's thread.(Another reason to join! LOL)

Also, my remarks for joining weren't meant to have a majority of voices heard one way or the other for a decisive win in the debate, but to be part of the process as a "Member" and reap the rest of the rewards that come with membership.(Being part of something bigger )

 

[dogofwar]

Sounds like only 1/2 of the ACA leadership is closed minded... and that people in the hobby take behavioral cues from the top.

I applaud Mo for his efforts to bring some resolution to the ACA's position on flowerhorns, other hybrids, and line bred fish.

I believe that the position that the leaders of the organization take will set the tone and growth potential for the club for the forseeable future.

If people who enjoy flowerhorns, flowerhorns and wild type fish, or only wild type fish (but not closed-mindedness) don't feel welcome in the ACA, then the ACA will have lost a lot of people...who could help resource and support the club's mission.

 

[rallysman]

If people who enjoy flowerhorns, flowerhorns and wild type fish, or only wild type fish (but not closed-mindedness) don't feel welcome in the ACA, then the ACA will have lost a lot of people...who could help resource and support the club's mission.

You hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure if others feel the same as I do, but I sure as hell don't feel "welcome" in the club. I'm not going to waste my money to try to feel that way either.

Something has to change, or the club will eventually die.

 

[shamrock]

rallysman-but do you keep fish to belong in a club or because you TRULY like the fish?