Hybrid fish

[koltsixx]

Naturally occurring hybrids are different IMO, in my limited scope they seem to show us an adaptation or evolution in real time instead of retrospectively. Like being at the forefront of technology!

I do agree, natural hybrids are probably an adaptation in some way to the environment and therefore a product of evolution. But I wouldn't it compare it to technology as that is the very definition of man and our adverse effects on the world around us and is probably the least natural thing we do. Unless you consider technology a result of our own evolution but therefore if that's true then hybridizing animals might also be seen as a result of our evolution. It's because of these dichotomies that I myself find it hard to stand firmly on either side. If I did spend much more time analyzing perhaps I could come to a conclusion but I haven't done so and I believe most of us develop our views more based on emotion than anything.

Breeding hybrids and then assigning them a trade name is a slippery slope for reasons others mentioned.

Again I agree but is it more a slippery slope than the tropical fish trade as a whole which has muddled species by not properly identifying fish that created the first unintentional hybrids such as Midas/Devils or prevented them from being clearly identified because of lack of knowledge. Than some fish finding their way into ecosystems they don't belong in and destroying other naturally occurring species. There are dangers on both sides for the fish and the hobbyist.

Selling hybrids, when the true species are difficult to find helps no one in my mind. When we talk about line breeding, we are talking about eugenics and US deciding what is best for the animal based on our taste and preferences NOT what’s best for that animals survival. I like to think the natural world has a little better viewpoint on what’s necessary than I do.

The hybrids I have seen are cichlids and catfish and of species that are not particularly hard to come by in my experience. As for the line breeding, that was my point about dogs and cats. How many of us love our dogs and cats yet in actuality they can be seen as every bit unnatural as hybrid fish. From the meat we eat to our loyal companions we have shaped animals to our desires with no consideration for the animals themselves. I do agree nature has a better design but I ask then where do we draw the line?

While I’m not a fan of hybrids I do enjoy naturally occurring morphs like golden long ear sunnys or all the crazy amphilophus colors that can be found whether xanthic or leucistic or melanistic or whatever else there is.

I like them as well but again those are evolutionary throw backs in most cases. Colors that make them stand out to predators making survival all the more difficult for the animal, essentially genetic defects. So why do some people like a naturally occurring defect that they find pleasing to the eye but not one that comes from hybridizing?

I know my wish list for fish hasn’t gotten any shorter over the years but it’s only as I learn about new wild species that it grows. I will never compete the list.

I mean you no offence just giving you some of the thoughts that run through my head when I see posts such as yours. My goal in the hobby has personally changed as I got older. I originally kept fish solely for my enjoyment. Usually attempting ill advised communities. Now my main interest is two fold. One I like to keep my fish for their lifetime and am happy to say I have fish that are 14 years old and still going strong. Two I would like to breed fish that haven't been bred in captivity as yet. Mostly so I can donate them to societies and spread some interesting uncommon fish. My dream has been to breed Nandopsis ramsdeni but alas I have looked for years with no luck. And my interest other than that is primarily rare fish because I like experiencing new things. As such I tend to keep naturally occurring fish ie: Cuban Gars, Pseudacanthicus serratus, Cynopotamus Argenteus, Trachycorystes trachycorystes Lithodoras dorsalis etc, etc. So I am totally with you on knowing what it's like to want so many naturally occurring species and knowing it's just not possible in one lifetime. But I do admit I also do like the occasional hybrid. The whole process of Feng Shui is very interesting to me and hybrids have found there way into it. I don't know, maybe I'm looking for answers in all the wrong places but that's where I am personally now.

 

[CrazyPhishMan]

None taken. That’s the point of forum- discussion and mingling of different opinions. This forum would have zero value if every member had an homogeneous opinion. There would be no need!

I agree about twisting animals to our needs, birds breed to shapes to fit smaller cages, fish with shorter or balloon bodies, brachycephalic dogand cat breeds.Dog breeds that cannot swim or give natural birth are all cruel human creations that do not aid or benefit the animal in anyway.
My 3 dogs and 3 cats are all rescues.
I won’t buy meat from a factory farm producer. We all make our choices and those choices come with consequences. For better or worse.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

As I learned of recently and mentioned in another thread yesterday, electric blue acaras are artificially bred hybrids of blue acaras and German blue rams. Surprising as that may be to some.

Cichlid species Andinoacara sp. “Electric Blue”

Information and details about the cichlid species <em>Hybrid</em>

andinoacara.com

Electric blues

Electric blues

www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk

 

[koltsixx]

As I learned of recently and mentioned in another thread yesterday, electric blue acaras are artificially bred hybrids of blue acaras and German blue rams. Surprising as that may be to some.

Cichlid species Andinoacara sp. “Electric Blue”

Information and details about the cichlid species <em>Hybrid</em>

andinoacara.com

Electric blues

Electric blues

www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the sources you cited but in both articles it was to my understanding a proposed theory not a definitive fact and other theories including line breeding was cited as also possible in the practicalfishkeeping article. Both articles seem to say that the truth is a well guarded secret but I do admit that both seem to push the hybird theory more than the line bred.

Now I humbly submit I am no expert but from the little I know it sounds unlikely to me that they are a hybrids. One of the articles states that the two are closely related which isn't true. One belongs to Genus Andinoacara the other to Mikrogeophagus. Now it's true that the taxonomy of the fish have been changed but the two where never placed in the same genus to my knowledge. And even fish that share the same genus can often times be found to be infertile when bred together. My major point being that saying they are closely related is incorrect or misleading at very least in my opinion.

Another thing that strikes me as one of the arguments that the fish are hybrids is that introducing wild blue acara denotes hybrids as the resulting offspring I guess express coloration like the wild counterpart. Again I am not an expert but as far as I know that indicates nothing except that the trait is recessive. Which a fish does not need to be a hybrid to have recessive traits or be able to express them.

Examples are seen everywhere. Albino fish, not a hybrid but an expression of a recessive trait and it even occurs in the wild. Axanthic, Xanthic, Leucistic etc, etc are seen in our hobby some wild caught others replicated simply by breeding two recessive animals that express the gene together or two animals that are heterozygous for the trait but don't express the gene. For instance if you breed a albino with a wild color form the resultant offspring will be wild colored. However the offspring will carry the recessive trait and if bred to one another the resultant offspring will be 50 percent normal 50 percent albino approximately. It is the very way we get linebred animals to show the traits we desire and yes it can be used in hybridizing but does not prove an animal has been hybridized.

These traits are recessive because evolution has designated them as being counterproductive to an animals survival in the wild. Through generations these genes get linked to other "undesirable" genes that certain animals of the species will be carriers of these recessive genes. Since these characteristics are linked often the offspring suffer unwanted traits with the ones we want. Deformities such as being smaller than their wild colored counterpart, less aggressive so unable to compete with their normal colored siblings, spinal deformities, things that would hinder survival in the wild.

Lets take a look at the Blood Parrot, while the jury is out on the definitive original process of their creation they are most definitely a hybrid. They inherited different traits from their parents. Some combined into deformities because with a fair degree of certainty the fish used to produce BP's where not closely related and had vastly different body types. Since some of those traits where codominant the BP expressed both characteristics simultaneously. Causing the deformed shortened spine and deformed mouth.

Now if the Electric Blue Acara is a hybrid of two very different bodied and not closely related genus why does the Electric Blue Acara only express the coloration of the Ram but the body of a small Blue Acara? In all those genetics that where intermingled there where no codominant traits? Or traits that would be dominant in the Ram that would overwrite a recessive trait in the Blue Acara? And even if it was that way then why when you breed two Electric Blue Acaras together do none of the offspring express recessive traits of the Ram? Logically I would think in such a intermingling some of those offspring would have heterozygous genes that would create other different recessive traits.

TL: DR, Sorry I lack the ability to be concise hopefully you take the time to read my post do your own research and find out if my understanding is flawed or not.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I'm admittedly not an expert either, just thought I would be able to trust sites like PFK and andinoacara.com as they have or appear to have a fairly good track record of accuracy.
Will have to do my own research even further, it seems, but you have some consideration-worthy counterpoints of the hybrid theory.

 

[Hybridfish7]

Have you considered how often man "plays God" in other areas of everyday life?

It blows my mind how some view others for their choice of fish. I like pure bred species and also love hybrids. I don't need everyone to be ok with that. We have steady and reliable places to get both that aren't going anywhere. Tuic is right here and active on this forum supplying some of the best options out there. It's not like these wild species we all love aren't available. I also don't get it when ppl say that hybrids make it hard to find pure species for the purists out there. They're easy to find.

It only gets hard with species that are commonly hybridized. Took awhile but I've finally found places with pure strains of amphilophus and amatitlania. I don't like pure species or strains for the fact that they are pure or "how they're supposed to be", I like them because you get the most out of them that way. Domestic strains, while they have their charms, you don't get the same behaviors, changes in color, temperament, etc.
If they happen in my tanks, I don't let them out, I'll grow a couple out of curiosity. Most don't make it to reproduce anyway.
If aquatic aggression sees this, I go to the gym 5 days a week and am 185 lbs of muscle, my tongue is glued to the roof of my mouth and my nose is clear enough to breathe through. I also have burmese, chinese, vietnamese, german, irish, indian, polynesian and (iirc) either paiute or klamath in me, so I think I'm good on that front at least.

 

[DrownedFishonFire]

Its a mixed feeling from the purist in me when it comes to the hybrid approach. Would this mix have naturally occurred in nature? Im fishing out in nature and do encounter many hybrids out there especially panfish. If they can survive then im not going to cry about it. Nature is always evolving. We are the slower ones to evolve.

Its not the hybrid im having most trouble with but the fragility we are breeding into our fish. Just found out that FH gets sick easily with the HITH via a FB discussion group. Why are people touting the FH as an aggressive fish when they are actually fragile? My cousins FH kok got stuck in the water change and it collapsed and it did not live long afterwards. Such a fragile creature. What about those long finned creatures we are creating in the pure species strain? They look like they are struggling to swim if theres any current in the water. I am sorry to derail the thread a bit off away from the hybridization as there are just too many manmade hybrids and natures hybrids out there along with our genetic bastardization of a trait in a fish. We have cichlids now floating out here with no paperwork or “pedigree” and is still labeled as a real thing. Its sad thing to see in this hobby.

 

[Batmanatron1]

If it's about playing God, remember that God gave man dominion over all animals.

 

[FJB]

Only mankind believes that, and not all. And those who do are mistaken.

 

[Batmanatron1]

Here's my current hybrid project. Male is a hybrid from father synspilum and mother blood parrot. Female is red dragon flowerhorn. These fish were already hybrids when I got them. The synspilum with full disclosure and I got to meet the parents! I also have 2 of his brothers and one of his sisters in another tank of their own. These fish are cool I don't care what anybody says. Furthermore these are by far some of the smartest fish I've had. I'm not creating a new fish here either that's not what I want. I want to simply breed these fish (which have been supposedly used in the creation of FH) into my Red Dragon to have more colors of expensive FH around my home lol these are Ornimental Fish, to be admired and respected. These fish are very social and love to be interacted with. My fish love people and get so visibly excited when they see the kids. And as it is right now the only available flowerhorns at any lfs here in phx az are the bonsai...