is there another...

[pwmin]

My suspicion is if you ask two different people in the DOW that are supposed to know the interpretation, you will get 2 different answers. I wouldn't think that four different LFS around here would have illegal fish, but you never know and obviously can't depend on that for an answer. Piranhas obviously fit under the tropical/subtropical exemption, so they should be legal, but some gars don't as we've already established (if it's the correct interpretation). Next time I see them, I will ask the stores about them. It does say that fish from 23.5 to 26 latitude ("subtropical") are exempt, but that still doesn't include any more gars from what I can tell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Miami is at approximately 26.

After I read all of chapter 0 and the applicable references, I didn't see anything that would lead me to believe that you have to read farther, especially all the way to chapter 11.

I apologize for how I was talking before. I was already highly perturbed at the time about something else and it clouded my judgement. I feel like a douchebag because of it.

 

[Polypterus]

I apologize for how I was talking before. I was already highly perturbed at the time about something else and it clouded my judgement. I feel like a douchebag because of it.

Your good man.. These topics can be complex and sometimes overwork the already overworked..(I know this well) As I said I have an E-mail out to just clarify this for future reference. I would honestly like to be wrong as far as Gars go..

 

[pwmin]

Your good man.. These topics can be complex and sometimes overwork the already overworked..(I know this well) As I said I have an E-mail out to just clarify this for future reference. I would honestly like to be wrong as far as Gars go..

I might also send an email out to the head of field operations and talk to the hearings guy again, too.

I hope you're wrong, too, or I will have to get rid of this gar and get a Tropical Gar. I could try and hide it, but I don't want to keep anything illegal. Hmm, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, lol.

 

[pwmin]

In the Introduction section of Chapter 11, it says the following
"Aquaculture - Colorado statutory law recognizes that fish may be held and propagated under the authority of an aquaculture permit issued by the Department of Agriculture. In addition, chapter 12 authorizes the possession of fish for use in aquaria with some restrictions."

referencing Chapter 12 leads me to this:
Ch.12 - 1201(C)(1)
"No lake license, commercial or private, shall be required for persons to obtain and possess live fish for aquaria or private ponds as long as such ponds are closed systems, not connected to state waters. Live fish held in aquaria or private ponds shall not be released in state waters (Comm. Reg. #009A)."

IDK if that is just a general reference or what.

I didn't get a chance to email anyone yet since I had to leave this morning to go to SD and won't get back till late tomorrow, but I may email someone from my personal account later tonight.

 

[Polypterus]

Well I just got word back and am happy to say you ARE correct on possession.


There is a clearly defied exemption for private aquaria possession. Importation is different and does require specific licensing.. Therefore if it was legally imported it is legal to own and possess in as defined above a closed system.

SOOOO.... yes... I was totally wrong on what I was interpreting and humbly will take a step back and acknowledge this.. I'm going to make sure my specific documents relating to CO law are now kept up to date...

 

[pwmin]

I apologize again for saying what I said, how I said it. When I said that, I had not seen ch. 11, which seemingly says that only "tropical" and "subtropical" fish that are on the list are exempt. All Piranha would fall under this exemption, therefore they would all be legal anyway so there was no worry there, anyway with Mike since they were the only fish on that list that were explicitly sold by him on his website. That's all moot after the response you received.

I'm glad we have clarification. Hopefully, the person I e-mailed before I saw this will give me the same answer.


One question: How do you know if it was legally imported?

 

[Polypterus]

One question: How do you know if it was legally imported?

Buy from a permitted dealer would be one way.. Otherwise this is another big rabbit hole..
Lot's of gray areas as far as Colorado is concerned.. Do let me know what you hear from other sources..

 

[pwmin]

Buy from a permitted dealer would be one way.. Otherwise this is another big rabbit hole..
Lot's of gray areas as far as Colorado is concerned.. Do let me know what you hear from other sources..

Yep, lots of gray.


I will keep you posted on what he says.

 

[pwmin]

Here is a copy and paste of an e-mail response by Brett Ackerman, "Regulations Manager"...

"In the end, I believe Paul's conclusions are
correct. In his example of
Gars: They are generally prohibited for private
possession by
Commission Regulation, except for tropical and
subtropical gars, or
under a scientific collection permit. However,
there are avenues by
which someone could possess Gars, and they are
largely through
Department of Ag rules. I think the main thing
you have to keep in mind
to understand the issue is that these regulations
were formulated under
a difficult dual jurisdiction situation, making
them complex by
necessity in order not to overstep our statutory
bounds. Even if we
wanted to outlaw all possession of Gars, it is
not within our statutory
authority. Therefore, we have a situation where
essentially we have
outlawed them to the extent practicable, but
recognize that private
possession is allowable through the Department of
Ag."

So, the Division doesn't want you to be able to keep them, but the Dept. of Ag. says we have the authority and you can keep them.


I asked a couple more questions that you should be able to figure out. Here are the answers from Bob Thompson,Assistant Chief of Law Enforcement,Colorado Division of Wildlife:

"As far as the question that if a fish store is
trying to sale a
restricted species. The best thing is to forward
that information on to
the Law Enforcement Unit and we will get the
information out to the
appropriate personnel. As far as mistakenly
purchasing a restricted
species the best thing is notify the appropriate
aquatic biologist to
verify that it is restricted and notify the LEU
of where the species was
purchased."

 

[demjor19]

Here is a copy and paste of an e-mail response by Brett Ackerman, "Regulations Manager"...

"In the end, I believe Paul's conclusions are
correct. In his example of
Gars: They are generally prohibited for private
possession by
Commission Regulation, except for tropical and
subtropical gars, or
under a scientific collection permit. However,
there are avenues by
which someone could possess Gars, and they are
largely through
Department of Ag rules. I think the main thing
you have to keep in mind
to understand the issue is that these regulations
were formulated under
a difficult dual jurisdiction situation, making
them complex by
necessity in order not to overstep our statutory
bounds. Even if we
wanted to outlaw all possession of Gars, it is
not within our statutory
authority. Therefore, we have a situation where
essentially we have
outlawed them to the extent practicable, but
recognize that private
possession is allowable through the Department of
Ag."

So, the Division doesn't want you to be able to keep them, but the Dept. of Ag. says we have the authority and you can keep them.


I asked a couple more questions that you should be able to figure out. Here are the answers from Bob Thompson,Assistant Chief of Law Enforcement,Colorado Division of Wildlife:

"As far as the question that if a fish store is
trying to sale a
restricted species. The best thing is to forward
that information on to
the Law Enforcement Unit and we will get the
information out to the
appropriate personnel. As far as mistakenly
purchasing a restricted
species the best thing is notify the appropriate
aquatic biologist to
verify that it is restricted and notify the LEU
of where the species was
purchased."

very interesting and a little confusing as well.