I've Seen The Light- UGF's SUCK

[fg4608]

Thanks guys!

As far as the mechanical being "detrimental to the biological", what I was eluding to was simply space...

Regarding the gravel bed vs sump for bio, I am a firm believer of getting as detrius free water as possible to the bio volume. Hence my reluctance to putting mechanical filtration after biological...

Short story; thus far, I can't make up my mind!

I do however know that there are quite few advantages of a sump system that I do want to capitalize on. Most of them you already named Egon:
Hide my equipment
Drip system
Constant water level in display tank
...

 

[Egon]

Overall volume of water in the "system" is a huge advantage of a sump also. The more water the less fluctuations in parameters including heat. Consistency is good for fish.

I agree with putting Mechanical filtration before bio. I do it more for ease of maintenance. My internal overflows I fill with bio balls and the very top is a pad for mechanical filtration. Easy to get to and change. My sumps are just filled with bio balls, no maintenance. Once every 6 months I'll vac out the bottom of my sumps.

 

[KaiserSousay]

I am a firm believer of getting as detrius free water as possible to the bio volume
Amen brother....
That is one of the beauties of CA`s system.
You can`t get much better than water that has gone through a 20 micron membrane.
Well, you could use the even finer cartridges and get into the 7-10 micron range, but you would be doing quite a few cartridge swaps. Not that unscrewing the filter housing and swapping cartridges is that much work.
I would really be reluctant to try that fine a filter sock or media feeding a sump.
Would have to design in a path for bypass flow as the media plugged.
Not knocking sumps at all.
Just the ability to add water volume, with the benefits of dilution of toxins in the increased gallons, can`t be gained any other way.
Add in all the other sump pluses and one can see why they are so popular.
What I was saying, keep the systems separate.
What I was not saying, either-or…
If I was the lucky owner of a large volume tank, with a gravel bed, pretty sure I would have both.

 

[CA-Delta]

I am a firm believer of getting as detrius free water as possible to the bio volume. Hence my reluctance to putting mechanical filtration after biological...

This could very well be a good point. I don't have a sump so I have no direct knowledge. I would imagine you would want some mechanical filtration before the sump. My setup would best be considered constant water polishing and insurance that very clean water is being pumped to the gravel bed. If the mechanical filtration in the sump is effective, the canister filter cartridges should last awhile. It would certainly be a test of your sumps ability to filter mechanically.

 

[fg4608]

Now we are getting somewhere! lol

I'm seriously thinking of combining the two systems but keep them independend like you guys are talking about!


I would keep my sump design that I have in mind which would serve mainly as bio-filtration and to reap the benefits of a sump and thus include:

• An overflow type sump feed
• A three stage mechanical filtration by means of sequential filter socks [200micron -> 100micron -> 50micron]
• A large volume of submerged bio media [ A mix of Seachem matrix, Seachem Pond Matrix, Eheim Biosubstrate Pro and some ceramic rings - yes, I want them mixed in one chamber to "mimic" nature and take advantages of all individual pro's]
• A set water volume for quick water changes [another MFK'er posted a "high tech sump" thread a while back. Cannot remember the name or exact thread name...]
• Heaters
• Drip system [yeah, I know... water changes and drip system]
• Spray bar return

Then the system we are talking about here to mainly serve as a continuous water polishing system(s):

• Power heads with screen intakes
• Whole house filters [20 micron. maybe sequential down even further?]
• Seachem Purigen reactor [also made out of the whole house filter canisters
• UGJ

I wrote "system(s)" because I am a stickler for symetry and I can see mounting an overflow skimmer box at the center back of my display tank to feed my sump and then add two (2) of these closed loop systems with one intake in each back corner. The UGJ's would then be interlaced so that each system virtually covers the whole gravel bed...

 

[piggy67]

A very good read guys. Now to soak it all in...

 

[CA-Delta]

Now we are getting somewhere! lol

I'm seriously thinking of combining the two systems but keep them independend like you guys are talking about!

Sounds like a whole boat load of overkill for a 120 gallon tank.
You might be drifting away from the core principal of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).
I am also a stickler for detail.
Any number of questions come to mind as relates to your sump design but that is for a different discussion thread.
I am not sure I would completely separate the systems. Possibly two pumps in one sump ?
I think your water polisher idea would work, however, I have a few thoughts.
While I have in the past used finer micron cartridges I have found 30 micron to be the best trade off between clarity and service interval.
Given the size of your tank and the fact that you will have a separate sump/pump setup I think one UGJ grid would be plenty. At some point redundancy becomes way overkill.
Are you using the term "Power Head" interchangeably with pump ?

 

[fg4608]

Yes, indeed!

Guilty of over engineering more so than most!

My stand that I am building has a 138" x 30" footprint, so I am looking down the road a little as well... [should have mentioned that though...]

Yes, I was using the term power head interchangeably with a pump, as I was seeing a version of the HOB filter KaiserSousay posted a picture of...

You are right though. One closed loop system would be plenty. I just need to split my intake to reach both back corners like I want to...

And, being your experience with the micron rating, I would def use your 30micron as a starting point. By extension then, it also sounds like I could/should limit my mechanical in the sump to a two stage filtration instead of three...

I would very much like to hear the question you say come to mind regarding my sump thoughts. I'll see if I cannot make some drawings tonight and start a new thread...

 

[CA-Delta]

By extension then, it also sounds like I could/should limit my mechanical in the sump to a two stage filtration instead of three.

Not neccessarily true.
This would be a question best answered by someone with more extensive sump experience, but, I would imagine that allowing waste to circulate through your Bio materials is not helpful. If nothing else it would add to your maintenance. I'm not sure there is a consensus on the level of prefiltration for a sump.
It seems the prevailing theory is more is better.
Hmmm... This might make for an interesting thread.
BTW, any questions I have regarding sumps are just that.
I have no personal experience with sumps. Although I continue to educate myself on the subject I have as yet not found a need for one. I am toying with a plan to add a Riparium to my 100 and given the similarities to a conventional sump I am an interested observer.

 

[Egon]

Not neccessarily true.
This would be a question best answered by someone with more extensive sump experience, but, I would imagine that allowing waste to circulate through your Bio materials is not helpful. If nothing else it would add to your maintenance. I'm not sure there is a consensus on the level of prefiltration for a sump.
It seems the prevailing theory is more is better.
Hmmm... This might make for an interesting thread.
BTW, any questions I have regarding sumps are just that.
I have no personal experience with sumps. Although I continue to educate myself on the subject I have as yet not found a need for one. I am toying with a plan to add a Riparium to my 100 and given the similarities to a conventional sump I am an interested observer.

The bio material is designed to not clog. However, pre filtering is probably beneficial from the maintenance standpoint. Sumps are gravity feed (mostly) so the pre filter will be above the sump and easily maintained because it's centralized in one area. If little to no pre filtering is done the bottom of the sump fills with poo. Just a little more trouble to syphon the bottom of the sump once a week or change the pre filter once a week so I go with pre filtering. Does the pre filter increase the effectiveness of the bio media? I doubt it. But it's way easier to clean.