live feeders for snakes

[Ophiuchus]

I know I've mentioned this before, but for those who are against live feedings; it's all about the method. I think its funny that many professional breeders (Brian Barczyk, Kevin McCurley [NERD], Greg Graziani, Ralph Davis, etc etc) have all admitted to feeding live to their snakes and have been doing so for years. Most of them claim they've never had a rodent attack a snake. Starting adding up the numbers (# of prey items per snake each week for lets say, 5 yrs)...and you'll see just how little risk there is, if it is done correctly.

Now I will agree that dead prey is safer than live prey, hands down. But in reality, the risk is a lot smaller than people make it out to be, when its done right.

And this isn't always the case, but everytime I run into someone who is so opposed to live, its usually a noob to the hobby. When I ask them why they feel this way, the reply usually involves hearing it from a petstore employee or some family member who knows nothing of the herp hobby.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think its fair to knock someone for feeding live if they have good success with it just because you don't like it. To each his own. It's like I don't like vegetarians telling me I'm wrong for eating meat.

And as far as my own collection goes, I generally prefer to feed live prey, but my pocketbook demands that I use f/t. However, if I have a picky snake, I have no qualms using live. I'm not going to let my snake starve just because I have sympathies for the "poor defenseless mouse." I dunno...Ive been working with animals too long; Ive been bitten by too many rats and mice to feel any kind of remorse.

 

[catfish hippy man (dylan)]

rabbits are lagomorphs

 

[Brooklynella]

I know I've mentioned this before, but for those who are against live feedings; it's all about the method. I think its funny that many professional breeders (Brian Barczyk, Kevin McCurley [NERD], Greg Graziani, Ralph Davis, etc etc) have all admitted to feeding live to their snakes and have been doing so for years. Most of them claim they've never had a rodent attack a snake. Starting adding up the numbers (# of prey items per snake each week for lets say, 5 yrs)...and you'll see just how little risk there is, if it is done correctly.

Now I will agree that dead prey is safer than live prey, hands down. But in reality, the risk is a lot smaller than people make it out to be, when its done right.

And this isn't always the case, but everytime I run into someone who is so opposed to live, its usually a noob to the hobby. When I ask them why they feel this way, the reply usually involves hearing it from a petstore employee or some family member who knows nothing of the herp hobby.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think its fair to knock someone for feeding live if they have good success with it just because you don't like it. To each his own. It's like I don't like vegetarians telling me I'm wrong for eating meat.

And as far as my own collection goes, I generally prefer to feed live prey, but my pocketbook demands that I use f/t. However, if I have a picky snake, I have no qualms using live. I'm not going to let my snake starve just because I have sympathies for the "poor defenseless mouse." I dunno...Ive been working with animals too long; Ive been bitten by too many rats and mice to feel any kind of remorse.

If the latest trend is for pet shop employees to recommend feeding f/t, I think this is really good news, especially since as you noted they are noobs.

Not sure if you intended it this way but your post sort of reads: Experienced keepers/prof breeders= live food. Noobs= frozen/thawed.
Personally, I will continue to recommend that snake keepers feed f/t regardless of their experience level. Furthermore, I do not believe for one second that feeding live or frozen has any bearing on one's experience level.
I've read many of your posts and you are an intelligent keeper. That said, There is no advantage to feeding a snake that will accpet frozen prey live prey. That is not to say you are wrong for feeding live; it just doesn't matter to the snake one way or the other. The keeper should ultimately do whats easiest for them. However, when you feed a large rabbit to a smallish Retic and post it on Youtube, you are not a big tough guy-you're a jackoff that is only hurting the image of snakes and those who keep them as pets.

 

[Ophiuchus]

If the latest trend is for pet shop employees to recommend feeding f/t, I think this is really good news, especially since as you noted they are noobs.

Not sure if you intended it this way but your post sort of reads: Experienced keepers/prof breeders= live food. Noobs= frozen/thawed.

I'm not necessarily implying that one way is better than the other, regardless of one's experience. My main point is, in a nutshell (and this applies to all aspects of the hobby and I'm not directing this at any one person), don't be so quick to judge something, especially if you don't know all the facts and/or have no real experience.

As said before, there's nothing wrong with f/t. All my snakes eat f/t. But please do not base your opposition to live-feeding solely on what one single person may have told you. As with anything, make sure you consider your sources. Not saying all petstore employees are incompetent rubes (I currently work at one and have been for 10 yrs), but sometimes when taking advice, who do you think is more credible? the petstore clerk who has been there for 4 months and may or may not have ever owned a snake in his life? or the breeder who has been producing hundreds of baby ball pythons year after year for nearly a decade?

One example of my early ignorance was that I was raised and taught for years that feeding savannah monitors rodents was horrible, that it made them aggressive and obese, and they weren't getting the right nutrition, etc etc. But I was basing my opinion on my experience with one sav that I kept for 2 yrs, and the advice of others who most had never even kept monitors. Eventually (after several debates with varanio and others) I learned the error of my thinking and was a little more open-minded after looking at the facts.

 

[Louie]

I know I've mentioned this before, but for those who are against live feedings; it's all about the method. I think its funny that many professional breeders (Brian Barczyk, Kevin McCurley [NERD], Greg Graziani, Ralph Davis, etc etc) have all admitted to feeding live to their snakes and have been doing so for years. Most of them claim they've never had a rodent attack a snake. Starting adding up the numbers (# of prey items per snake each week for lets say, 5 yrs)...and you'll see just how little risk there is, if it is done correctly.

Now I will agree that dead prey is safer than live prey, hands down. But in reality, the risk is a lot smaller than people make it out to be, when its done right.

And this isn't always the case, but everytime I run into someone who is so opposed to live, its usually a noob to the hobby. When I ask them why they feel this way, the reply usually involves hearing it from a petstore employee or some family member who knows nothing of the herp hobby.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think its fair to knock someone for feeding live if they have good success with it just because you don't like it. To each his own. It's like I don't like vegetarians telling me I'm wrong for eating meat.

And as far as my own collection goes, I generally prefer to feed live prey, but my pocketbook demands that I use f/t. However, if I have a picky snake, I have no qualms using live. I'm not going to let my snake starve just because I have sympathies for the "poor defenseless mouse." I dunno...Ive been working with animals too long; Ive been bitten by too many rats and mice to feel any kind of remorse.

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"Now I will agree that dead prey is safer than live prey, hands down. But in reality, the risk is a lot smaller than people make it out to be, when its done right."

you made my point while contradicting yourself.

 

[Louie]

If the latest trend is for pet shop employees to recommend feeding f/t, I think this is really good news, especially since as you noted they are noobs.

Not sure if you intended it this way but your post sort of reads: Experienced keepers/prof breeders= live food. Noobs= frozen/thawed.
Personally, I will continue to recommend that snake keepers feed f/t regardless of their experience level. Furthermore, I do not believe for one second that feeding live or frozen has any bearing on one's experience level.
I've read many of your posts and you are an intelligent keeper. That said, There is no advantage to feeding a snake that will accpet frozen prey live prey. That is not to say you are wrong for feeding live; it just doesn't matter to the snake one way or the other. The keeper should ultimately do whats easiest for them. However, when you feed a large rabbit to a smallish Retic and post it on Youtube, you are not a big tough guy-you're a jackoff that is only hurting the image of snakes and those who keep them as pets.

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Agree I can not think of a single reason to feed live . Why risk the bite the scratch .
Your right experience level makes no difference sure some breeders might feed live but some feed thawed .

In my case I won't risk the above and no reason to risk it thus why do it.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Another example (and this has nothing to do with herps)....

This guy came into the saltwater dept one night while I was working and told me he was getting ready to move his 125 gall reef tank. He wanted to completely replace all the water and all the live sand! [Anyone who knows aquaria stuff would agree this is ridiculous; you usually want retain as much stuff from the tank as possible to keep the good bacteria and such]. Anyway, I was dumbfounded and blatantly asked him why he would do such a thing and he told me a few of his friends were marine biologists and advised him that was the best course of action. I then replied that I was no marine biologist, and explained to him why it was beneficial. I also asked if these scientist friends of his had actually employed the scientific method, tried both ways of relocating tanks and determined which way was better. He said he would think about and consequently I never did see him again, so perhaps he decided for the better.

 

[Louie]

Thawed feeders have risks too. Many bacterias can grow inside dead rodents. You put faith that the feeder was properly raised, killed, frozen, and thawed.

You can say that about the food we buy but okay just to play along.
I have purchased from same co for yrs.
Trust them the mice are packed in air tight package -arrive frozen solid in dry ice and never had a problem.

I can just as easily turn around and ask
How do you know the live mice you buy are fed correctly and healthy ?

No reason to feed live . If a person wan'ts to fine I won't risk my snake's getting bit by an adult mouse .

 

[selki]

There are snakes that have lots of trouble accepting anything but Live prey.

i did breed mice back then for my panther chameleons, its quite easy...just have a big plastic container and maintain them regularly= infinit food for your pets!

 

[Ophiuchus]

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"Now I will agree that dead prey is safer than live prey, hands down. But in reality, the risk is a lot smaller than people make it out to be, when its done right."

you made my point while contradicting yourself.

How so exactly? I didn't contradict myself at all. Perhaps you need to read the statement again. I never said live is better than f/t. I just said that the risk of injury from feeding live is not near as great as people make it out to be and that when done correctly, it is rather small. But once again, by technicality, the risk is higher than feeding dead prey, if only by a small margin. Please take the time to read things more thoroughly in the future, Louie.
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...and the benefits are there:

- live prey usually triggers a stronger feeding response, especially from finicky eaters. This makes perfect sense since in nature, snakes are accustomed to hunting live prey as opposed to simply feeding on carrion (although the latter does occasionally happen)
- while each snake is different and caging may play an option here, live feeding does offer the animal more exercise. I know many snakes Ive owned and cared for over the years get to a point where they casually take f/t prey from the tongs and lazily swallow it without exerting any effort or constriction. Some may argue that this could lead to a flabby snake that rarely moves. There's a saying that you can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger. I sincerely believe that occasionally we should offer our snakes a little excitement just so they keep their edge. This is also important for breeding purposes.