Live vs Pellets?

[Lupin]

And another reminder, drop the offtopic comments if you please. Some of us are arguing in circles again. Take the time to reread the previous posts and digest the infromation and analyze where you are right or wrong.

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

So to sum up the thread after 21 pages--

massivore is the worst possible food that anyone could possibly feed a fish period. It is full of trash scraps from fish and seafood processing plants and then mixed with vitamins so that the nutritional value comes back up to a feeder fish.

And any true predator keeper needs to set up a live feeder program.

that is all.

 

[Tongue33]

So to sum up the thread after 21 pages--

massivore is the worst possible food that anyone could possibly feed a fish period. It is full of trash scraps from fish and seafood processing plants and then mixed with vitamins so that the nutritional value comes back up to a feeder fish.

And any true predator keeper needs to set up a live feeder program.

that is all.

WRONG!! 2 Feeders in each Massivore pellet

And a Feeder farm For Preds

Gees comprhensive reading disappeared today!!

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

This thread is like watching a late night info-mercial for massivore.

The amazing new and improved Massivore2billlion. One feeding is sure to cause explosive growth on any living species. Its jam packed full of the highest quality fish processing plant leftovers. It contains the very best fillers that money can by. A world record 16'' guppie was raised from birth on the all new massivore2billion. From birth to 16'' in less than 3 hours.

It has to be the best food, it says it right on the label.

 

[Lupin]

Great. With over 21 pages of circling arguments, I decided to trace through page to page again and compile all the important points.

First post.

I know pellets are a lot healthier and safer than live, but I was also wondering if fish grow faster on pellets as well. Seems like they should given all the nutrients inside of them.

Points given.

Languistic, you asked quite an interesting question. In my opinion, your statement that pellets are a lot healthier is quite intriguing and broad. It just comes down to the brands with their ingredients and guaranteed analysis included. A lot of pellets come with fillers such as soybean meals and starch which are quite unnecessary and not really that nutritious. While it does add up to the protein percentage, some fish lack the enzymes necessary to digest the starch. Even then, the digestion of starch can produce gas in the GI tract of the fish and potentially cause swim bladder disorders particularly with round bodied fish where the swim bladders (cranial and caudal lobes) are compressed due to the shape of the fish.

In regards to the fiber, high fiber content is needed in order for most fish to flush out their wastes effectively. The use of peas is noted in this case. Foods with very low fiber content (less than 5%), help reduce the amount of poo produced by the fish but I am not entirely convinced this helps with the digestive system of the fish as this makes them more prone to bloat and constipation.

Predatory fish, for instance, have shorter intestines and require high levels of proteins however proteins are not easily digested and the remaining undigested proteins can potentially clog the GI tract thus causing digestive upsets. It is extremely important to note that in this case, too much feeding must be avoided. Give the fish time to expel the wastes before giving it another meal and be sure to give small multiple meals rather than few large meals.

There is still a lot more points here that will be covered along the way I am sure.

For some reason, this topic can get heated...but it's a lot of it is subjective. If you breed and raise your own Feeders and gut load it with proper nutrition, then it should be fine. IMO, I think that Feeders make predators grow faster. As for nutrition...again, it depends on the source of Feeders. Pellets are just as good and I don't think it has anything to do with "laziness" I don't particularly feed my fish Feeders for moral purposes, but I do give it to them on occasion. At least the pellets will give you a nutrition chart telling you what it mostly contains. It's nothing bad for the fish. Where as Feeders can carry diseases that can transfer over to your fish.

With a variety of food and good water quality, fish will grow fast. Pellets, frozen, and even gut loaded live, but I think that if you feed it quality pellets and frozen variety, they will grow just as fast as feeding them live.

Before anyone forgets, some feeder fish may not be suitable for your pets' diet.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167891

just wanted to say Lupin's post are great and very detailed.

In my opinion unless you are breeding the feeder fish then it is not worth the hassle they may be bring to your tank. i suppose you could quarantine the fish for around 4 weeks to make sure they are clear and 9/10 they wont be so you willl need to treat them which in my opinion is a lot of hassle.

And for pellets these are a good option but only if you buy the high quality products low quality fish food will have a lot of addivitves whmich your fish will not benefit from. You will most likly find your fish will not eat these cheaper foods creating a lot of waste food.

In my opinion the best way to feed your fish is a very diet between live, dry and frozen foods this give a good nutrtional balance and is safe for your tank.

Pellets IMO are at the bottom of the healthy list.
Live > Frozen > Dried
Simple.

i agree lupin ^..
but honestly lupin what do you think is healthier and better as a staple diet?

Superleggera, to be honest, a better staple diet would be a varied diet and this depends on the species in question. Pellets make up a portion of the menu. The answer is very variable. With predatory fish, young fish and breeders, obviously protein based foods are extremely important (even in vegetarians although that doesn't mean you have to start feeding meaty foods) but we should not forget other nutrients should be taken into consideration.

True, i should have included insects. I just don't have any experience with them, so i can't offer any insight on the likelihood of their transmission of disease, and quarantine methods.

The transmission of disease is very unlikely with non-aquatic specimens.

Did you mean staple, or stable?
Fish should not be fed mice... That's just wrong on way to many levels.

Ethics aside, a lot of predatory fish eat shrews and small rodents. This is no different. The issue with that is most people tend to think feeding their fish with mice as a staple, is okay but mammalian protein is not easily digested.

Bottom line on that topic, it comes down to fish nutrition or human entertainment. Choose how you perceive this option.

With non-aquatic insects though, wouldn't there be the risk of introducing something the fish wouldn't encounter in the wild?

Like what? The incidence for this is very rare. Even fish in the wild consume millipedes, spiders, flies and anything else they can catch. This does not confine to archer fish, arowanas, butterfly fish and other well known insectivores.

Like how we're not supposed to feed mammalian or avian meat because they fish aren't used to the things in it, thus can't break it down.

It was not mentioned the fish are not completely used to mammalian protein. I should clarify that mammalian protein is hard to digest which is why most predators in the wild, take days before they attempt to gobble another prey. Nobody said not to feed mammalian protein at all. Beefhearts are no different. They are just not however good staple food and should make up a small portion only of the fish's diet for that very reason. It is not surprising shrews in the wild are eaten by most predatory fish and shrews are one of the smallest mammals that dwell in the water areas.

I don't imagine that in the wild, tropical fish consume many Canadian nightcrawlers. Is it possible that the excess different nutrients, fats, proteins, etc. in non-aquatic insects would be bad for fish since they don't encounter them in the wild?

If you are feeding them moderately, this is not an issue. This comes down to your perception and actions.

holy post marathon batman!

Thanks to Lupin for keeping it on track.


But home bred feeders do not have the issues of those found at lfs and you forget that all those vitamins and nutrients found in pellets can be fed to the feeders and end up in your predators bellies all the same.

other live foods have been overlooked as well as Lupin pointed out. live shrimp, crabs, worms, crickets etc. are also all beneficial and like above can be fed those vitamins and nutrients (and veggies) that you want your monsters to have.

Also puffers were brought up and someone mentioned a pellet food for them. I've yet to see a pellet that would be successful for puffers, feed your puffers pellets and you'll watch them starve to death once their teeth grow too long. they need the hard shells to constantly grind down on those ever growing teeth. snails and crustaceans for puffers.

As said before I feed live, frozen, and pellets to my oscars. this is necessary for a balanced diet and a balanced budget.

-frozen foods like the freshwater variety packs can be quite expensive although having all the necessary elements for healthy fish. Other things liek frozen shrimp can also be beneficial and good for natuaral coloring.

-home-bred feeders are relatively cheap but there are "seasons" where you'll have more and "seasons" where you'll have less. This for me is why feeders cannot be a primary. Also smaller fish are part of your monsters natural diet in the wild.

-good pellets are pricey as well and create unnecesary waste through the gills of my oscars. typically per pellet about 20-30% is lost through the gills adding to cost waste and bios waste at the bottom of the tank. while the pellets have a balanced diet they do not promote exercise at all which can lead to lithargic fish. if you have ample current in your tank via a circulation pump (like a hydor koralia) you can disregard.

-insects can provide many beneficial minerals and vitamins to your fish and are a natural part of their diet in the wild. the down side is some are noisy (crickets) others are hard to breed and typically your wife will not allow you to keep them in the house, which in AZ leads to an insect-b-que

-crustaceans like crabs, prawns, lobsters, etc can be pricey if you're land locked but offer many benefits for your fish. But as I'm in AZ, they're not really a viable option all the time.

Let me know if anything else has been missed. The compilation was done to avoid repetitive reading amongst late readers.

 

[Lupin]

Last warning. Drop this Massivore topic now please as this makes the thread a one sided infomercial with the repetitive babbling, whether promoting that product or antagonizing it, and try other topics not covered here yet so we can move on without the circling arguments.

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

Once again it should be noted that most comments hear are aimed towards a few certain species of fish. And is not at all suitable for apex preadators.

This thread may be of more use in the cichlid forum.

 

[yogurt_21]

Let me know if anything else has been missed. The compilation was done to avoid repetitive reading amongst late readers.

don't know if it was missed or you felt nothing new about it but post 133.

 

[Lupin]

don't know if it was missed or you felt nothing new about it but post 133.

That was strange. I thought I multi quoted it and must have completely forgotten it instead.

The compilation has been amended anyway.

 

[MonsterMinis]

That makes perfect sense .. And I just learned in the past 48 hours more then I thought I ever would about General Nutrition in Fish Husbandry