look what I picked up this weekend

[Irbanjaxed]

NICE PAIR
hope yah get some babies

 

[ryan_wilken]

they are very nice looking jd but i am 99.9% sure they have no eb genes

 

[Modest_Man]

Rapps does not breed his own EBJD's, they're imported. Are saying your friend initially bought fry from Rapps that carry the blue gene I find that hard to believe.

I saw them on his list a while back. Why is it hard to believe? He can get blue gene jacks from the same people he gets EBJD's from.

So Andy, with the EBJD fry from the blue gene pair dead or gone, there is actually a 66% chance that the jack fry you're selling on Aquabid are carriers for the electric blue gene, a bit better than 50%.

 

[bigguapote]

I received a heads up and link to this thread. No problem with any of the discussion. I quickly scanned the posts to find the subject that was brought to my attention.

I wanted to just clarify something that was stated earlier. I have never sold any 'regular looking' dempsey with blue genes to anyone at any time.
I sell the blues only.

As I've said to others who have intentions to breed blues for profit - why in the world would you distribute blue gene fish? If you want to breed something that is not widely produced or readily available, why sell yourself short for a short term, fast buck of selling blue gened fish??
It simply makes no sense.

That's all.
Jeff

 

[J-Aqua]

M.A.D. Howdy! See this article on the genetic testing of an EBJD

http://dempsey.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3

Tell ya everything you need to know.

I'll post here in a quote for everyone

This thread is for debate over whether EBJDs have hybrid or color morph origins.
The initial story of the origins of Electric Blue Jack Dempsey is best told by Marcelo Casacuberta of Uruguay. Marcelo met with the person who discovered these fish, Hector Luzardo, and he wrote a great article about it many years ago. This article has since been made famous in the cichlid world. Here is Marcelos' story:

I remember my first acquaintance with the hottest novelty in the South American fish trade: the blue Jack Dempsey. It was at a small fish exhibition in Uruguay, and a young pair was shown in a 25-gallon tank.
My first impression was that they were misplaced among other freshwater tanks, since they seemed to be reef fish, so strong was their bright turquoise color. That was back in 1986, and since then this fish has occasionally been available, but always in limited numbers. No one seemed to know who was breeding them (although it was said that they came from Argentina), and the few people who tried to get a successful spawn from them (including myself) faced complete failure.
Even when the eggs hatched, the feeble fry were never able to swim, dying after a couple of days. The blue Jack Dempsey slowly acquired a legendary status, and speculations started to flow. Was it a new species, a mutation, or a sterile hybrid from two different species? The situation was much like what happens today with the blood red parrot. I had to wait more than a decade to meet Mr. Hector Luzardo, the man we could call the creator of this colorful morph, to find out the real story behind this unusual fish.
It all started in 1985 when Mr. Luzardo received a mated pair of young Cichlasoma octofasciatum as a gift from a friend. They had already spawned in the community aquarium where they lived, but the eggs disappeared in a few hours. It was a nice pair of young adult fish, but they were nothing to write home about. As soon as they were installed in their own tank, they produced a huge spawn of about 2,000 eggs, and the fry were removed to another tank after the eggs hatched. When the fry were about 20 days old, Mr. Luzardo removed a couple of young fish that were floating in the tank, their fins ripped and many scales torn.
Their color seemed to be paler than usual, but he thought it was due to the missing scales. The next day there were about four fish in the same condition, and still more the day after. Soon it was clear that this was more than just the weaker fry being attacked by the tougher ones. There were some fish in the tank that looked and behaved very strangely.
A closer look revealed about one-fourth of the fry gathering in one corner, looking smaller and thinner than the rest of their siblings. They were immediately transferred to another tank. After a couple of weeks the pale creamy color of the young fish slowly turned into a bright turquoise blue, growing into something completely different from their parents. A whole new type of fish had arisen.
Having bred them for over ten years, it is now clear that color is only one of the differences. The blue Dempsey's usually have a more elongated body, show more individual variations in the dot pattern, and lack the large lateral spot. They aren't always hungry, as are the standard kind, and they grow slower, although they reach the same adult size in the end. They are also mild-tempered, but only if you compare them to regular Jack Dempsey's. In fact, these fish are sometimes called the Pacific Dempsey by the local traders as a reference to their peaceful natures. In the local trade they have also been called blue Jack Dempsey's, although turquoise would be a more accurate word to describe their color. Baby blue Dempsey's are so lightly colored that it's hard to notice when they have white spot, a disease they are prone to catch during their first four weeks. They are easily cured if kept at 90°F (32°C) for three to five days. After their first month they become as strong and healthy as any other member of the genus, thriving in neutral, slightly hard water around 75°F (24°C).
In spite of the obvious differences from the rest of their siblings, young blue Dempsey's are not treated differently by their parents, who seem to recognize those pale fish as their own fry, treating them just like they do their ordinary fry. The reason nobody was able to breed the fish is that a pair of two blue Dempsey's will always produce sterile spawns or very weak wrigglers that will die within a couple of days. To succeed, Luzardo mates a blue fish with a common one that carries the "blue" genes. This way about 50 percent of the offspring are blue. If you have two common fish that carry the blue genes, only 25 percent of their descendants will turn blue. Care must be taken when pairing mixed couples, as the blue individuals can suffer from the rowdy behavior of members of the normal type. As strange as it may sound, this beautiful fish is barely known outside South America. They are only being bred by Mr. Luzardo, who has about 20 mated pairs, so it has always been available only in small numbers. A serious attempt to distribute this variety in North America and Europe has yet to be done.
Recently a shipment was sent to Germany to test the interest among the German hobbyists. I believe it is only a matter of time after introducing this outstanding animal to the cichlid fans before they become an excellent addition to their tanks. Soon they will become a sought-after item for all cichlidophiles worldwide.
Copyright © 2000 T.F.H.Publications Inc.
Reservados todos los derechos.
Revisado: 30 Jan 2008 03:55

Article found on:
http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/tfhblue.htm
I have been in contact with Marcelo on many occassions now, and he has since sent me some slides he took of when he interviewed Hector Luzardo. Here are some photos of the original line:







DNA tests were commissioned by Jeff Rapps in August of 2005 in an attempt to verify the authenticity of Hector Luzardos claim. The results of the test furnished by Dr. Prosanta Chakrabarty proportedly showed that Electric Blue Jack Dempsey are indeed a color morph of octofasciata.
Many people in the cichlid community were doubtful over these results, and proclaimed the tests were run incorrectly and only showed mitachondrial DNA. Further investigation into this found that Dr. Prosanta Chakrabarty did indeed run nuclear DNA tests, and simply neglected to share them with people.
In an attempt to verify the results of these tests, members of the bluejax forum (http://bluejax.14.forumer.com/index.php) came together to help me fit the bill for some DNA analysis. Our DNA tests proved the same, that no other DNA was found in the gene region we targeted. Here is a copy of that test:
EBF8 = electric blue female
EBM8 = electric blue male
JDF8 = jack dempsey female
JDM8 = jack dempsey male

SEQ EBF8-20-07-10-41 AM: 504 bp;
Composition 109 A; 109 C; 133 G; 153 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.6% A; 21.6% C; 26.4% G; 30.4% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 155.89 dsDNA: 310.71
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG TCTT
SEQ EBM8-20-07-9-44 AM: 503 bp;
Composition 109 A; 109 C; 133 G; 152 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.7% A; 21.7% C; 26.4% G; 30.2% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 155.58 dsDNA: 310.09
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG TCT
SEQ JDF8-20-07-8-47 AM: 500 bp;
Composition 109 A; 108 C; 133 G; 150 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.8% A; 21.6% C; 26.6% G; 30.0% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 154.69 dsDNA: 308.24
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG
SEQ JDM8-20-07-7-41 AM: 489 bp;
Composition 105 A; 104 C; 131 G; 148 T; 1 OTHER
Percentage: 21.5% A; 21.3% C; 26.8% G; 30.3% T; 0.2%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 151.32 dsDNA: 301.46
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAS TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTC
JDM-8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
JDF8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
EBM8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
EBF8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
DQ119255 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
DQ836808 ----------------CTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
********************************************
JDM-8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGASTTGCAGCACC
JDF8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
EBM8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
EBF8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
DQ119255 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
DQ836808 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGACTTGCAGCACC
************************************************* **********
JDM-8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
JDF8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
EBM8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
EBF8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
DQ119255 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
DQ836808 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
************************************************************
JDM-8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
JDF8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
EBM8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
EBF8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
DQ119255 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
DQ836808 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
************************************************************
JDM-8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
JDF8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
EBM8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
EBF8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
DQ119255 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
DQ836808 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
************************************************************
JDM-8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
JDF8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
EBM8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
EBF8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
DQ119255 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
DQ836808 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
************************************************************
JDM-8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
JDF8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
EBM8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
EBF8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
DQ119255 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
DQ836808 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
************************************************************
JDM-8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
JDF8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
EBM8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
EBF8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
DQ119255 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
DQ836808 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGGTCCGCTGCCCTT
*********************************************** ************
JDM-8-20-07 CAGCGGTTC---------------------------------------------------
JDF8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATG----------------------------------------
EBM8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCT-------------------------------------
EBF8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTT------------------------------------
DQ119255 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTTTATTTCGCCGTGCAGAGACAAAGGCCATGTTCAGTA
DQ836808 CGGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTTTA----------------------------------
* *******
JDM-8-20-07 ---
JDF8-20-07 ---
EBM8-20-07 ---
EBF8-20-07 ---
DQ119255 CCA
DQ836808 ---
Since this test was completed, we have come to find that more information is needed to get a real solid and complete answer to the question, "Is Electric Blue Jack Dempsey a hybrid, or a color morph?".
The tests that still need to be completed are karyotype analysis, and full genome mapping of EBJDs, JDs and of each species suspected to be part of the hybrid genes. These tests are not cheap, and are not quick. Its possible these tests may never be run.
Despite the temporary dead end, we still have valuable discussion to be had on this topic.
So the question still remains, do you think Electric Blue Jack Dempsey's are a hybrid fish, or a color morph of Rocio octofasciata? You be the judge.
Cole~

J

 

[jgentry]

I'm confused? If you have friends that breed EBJD's and have owned EBJD's how in the world would you confuse the fish you bought with EBJD's. They look just like every other pair of jacks that you would see.

 

[Toby_H]

Regarding % of Blues/Standard/Blue Gene from a spawning pair...

Although I've proved "not so good" at raising Blue fry, I've had several pairs that produce Blue Dempseys... some BluexBG, some BGxBG... I've found some BGxBG pairs produce a lot of Blues (more than the stastical 25%) and some that produce few (far far less than the stastical 25%).

I think it is fair to say that BGxBG pairs produce around 25% Blue... around 25% Standard... and around 50% BG... but actual numbers will vary greatly from one pair to another...

I'm still in the process of trying each male BG with each female BG to see who produces the best brood. While doing this I've also found one pair that make Blues that are much closer in size/shape to their non Blue siblings... I expect to do better raising their Blue fry.

I don't know exactly what all of this means, but I'm convinced it's a lot more complex than A + B = C...


Lastly... it is a valid opinion of many people that Blue Dempseys are hybrids... but stating such an opinion as fact is misleading. Just like it would be misleading for someone to say Blue Dempseys are definately not hybrids... But when discussing these two opinions it is only fair to clarify that some genetic testing has been done, and none of it suggests they are hybrids, although the testing is not fully conclusive... See J Aquas post above for details on this testing.


But back on the original topic... the pair posted on page one are a real nice looking pair of Dempseys (although not Blue Dempseys).

 

[Gage]

Male carries EBJD gene, not EBJD yet.

...its impossible to tell whether it has the EB gene, what makes you think it does? JDs do have blue on them...

 

[Burtle]

Very nice JDs!
EBJDs aren't hybrids but aren't they more sensitive... dare I say weaker?
I also noticed the jaws/snout commonly grow 'grotesque' looking compared to regular JDs, with their broad blunt faces.
Regular JDs look better anyways IMO, and much easier to care for and raise.

 

[Mad About Cichlids]

Call me stubborn but EBJD still hybrids to me

Someone please show us another pure JD that as markings like the one in question.

...its impossible to tell whether it has the EB gene, what makes you think it does? JDs do have blue on them...

Did you even bothered to read my second and third posts?

I also noticed the jaws/snout commonly grow 'grotesque' looking compared to regular JDs.

So true




Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just like I like brown and black or gray and black fishes such as stripe Midas and Convicts