Male Midas x Female Carpintis = ???

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My response was to the person who said that selling these hybrids is very very bad idea. Im just saying that there are many fish that are mislabeled or a mix that are not identified correctly. I was pointing that even fish labeled as Red Devils are not true Red Devils, so should they inform all customers of this??

I am definitely not trying to argue with you paethenster. I agree with what youre saying, but I just dont think what he did, selling them is that bad of an idea. I would prefer to have a lot less hybrids out and about, but that seems to be how it is. He made an effort to explain what they are, and yeah I feel bad if someone buys them thinking they are pure rd's. Sorry to rant here, not trying to get on anyone.
 
irishfan;3709621; said:
My response was to the person who said that selling these hybrids is very very bad idea. Im just saying that there are many fish that are mislabeled or a mix that are not identified correctly. I was pointing that even fish labeled as Red Devils are not true Red Devils, so should they inform all customers of this??

I am definitely not trying to argue with you paethenster. I agree with what youre saying, but I just dont think what he did, selling them is that bad of an idea. I would prefer to have a lot less hybrids out and about, but that seems to be how it is. He made an effort to explain what they are, and yeah I feel bad if someone buys them thinking they are pure rd's. Sorry to rant here, not trying to get on anyone.

No worries man....this topic has been debated before and will be debated again...I'm sure one can try many interesting things with hybridization...it's just frustrating that sometimes people are unknowingly stuck with the wrong fish.
 
You know what? If someone is that bent on getting a "pure" Midas, they won't be buying it from their LFS unless they know the breeder involved and are sure they're getting a pure. Even then, you cannot know for 100% certainty that there's not some unwanted gene floating around in the fish.

If you go to Wal-Mart, Pet Smart, or other random stores looking for a "Red Devil," then chances are you're new to the hobby and don't really know or care about the pure or hybrid differences anyhow. Most of the people who do so are probably putting their newly acquired fishes in an uncycled 10 gallon tank and will kill it off anyhow. People that are experienced at the hobby and know what they're doing will not go shopping at these places purposely if looking for a specific species, unless they're just bored or something unique caught their eye in passing.

Don't get me wrong--I understand completely what you are saying about keeping lines pure, but me "giving" my extra offspring "freely" to a pet store that deals heavily in hybrid fishes is not a crime. Killing the little guys off and not giving them a chance to survive (which is what some are suggesting I should have done), to me, is a crime.

To each his own on that, as I don't care to argue about it. I was only curious how a Carpintis mother could have a 100% Midas offspring. If you cannot answer or help with that simple question, then you're adding nothing to this thread.

I agree it would be a bad idea to go out selling the fish under false pretenses and claiming they were 100% Midas, blah blah blah. Well, I did not do that. So, no need to get your feathers ruffled.

I wish an administrator would move this thread to the hybrid forums soon.
 
I'm going to suppress my negative views on hybrids for this thread. Though I will say it was irresponsible for your to "give" them to your store. I read to get a red texas you need a female blood parrot x texas male.
 
Citrinellus;3710179; said:
I'm going to suppress my negative views on hybrids for this thread. Though I will say it was irresponsible for your to "give" them to your store. I read to get a red texas you need a female blood parrot x texas male.

I'm guessing that makes sense after what I saw here, seeing that the offspring took after the father's color, and maintained the female's body style. I've never really studied up on it, as I've never bothered trying to force a hybrid breeding between two pures.
 
VRWC;3709452; said:
Thats interesting. Ive owned 3 variants of carpintis (with 1 new locale variant on the way) and currently have 7 cyanos and Ive never had a carpintis with spots even remotely close to being as small as they are on yours...especially in the face. Also, for me, its usually easier to tell the difference once they are past 3 inches.

Do you know the source of the fish (as in the breeder or collector) or the variant of carpintis?


The source of this female is mine. She's a fry from a pair of 4" Carpintis that I bought from a pet store a few years back who got them directly from one of their trusted breeders. The owner of that store was against selling hybrids or "painted" fish, so I doubt he was duped. They were sold as a pair only, and I honestly don't know anything about the different variants floating out there--although I have certainly witnessed many varied colorations and patterns. It is probably safe to say that it'd be highly unlikely to get a 100% pure texas or carpintis with how similar they are in appearance these days, however it is chanceable.

What I do know, is the older my females got, the smaller their spots got--especially between the eyes. None of the Texas I've ever owned had spots between the eyes at all--rather a flat, dull bluish green bald area as you'll see below. Yet, I also had some Texas whose spots got larger as they aged along their body and gill areas.

When my Carpintis pair kept spawning and disallowed me to add anything else to the tank, I sold them and kept a few of the offspring from their last batch. The female you see showcased is one of their offspring. When she was young, her spots were very large--as she aged and went into breeding dress, she turned sheer white headed and black bodied--just like her mother. As she got older, some of her spots became smaller--especially around the face.

As far as spots go, the one thing that sets her immediately apart from the Texas I have is the spots between the eyes. Other than that, her body style is different than the Texas--which to me was the easiest way to tell them apart. She's slender and more elongated, while the Texas are thick and high-bodied in comparison.

I will add some pictures of some Texas I have below--I apologize in advance for their poor quality, as I just took quick shots for quick posting.

I will search and see if I have any juvenile shots of the mother and these Texas as well. I've raised all of these from fry.

All of the pictures below are Texas. Notice how none of them have spots between the eyes like the Carpintis in the original photo--very clear on the frontal shot listed first. You cannot go by the size of spots or spangles on these fish--you must go by location of them. Carpintis' will have spots or wavy line colorations all over the face--especially the males.

Ultimately, though, there's no way of knowing for sure that the female I own doesn't have some Texas in her ancestory--and it could be quite possible. I will say her patterns do not match that of her parents, as their spangles weren't nearly as broken up and as small as hers. What I can ensure, however, is she came from Carptintis parents, and she does show the spangles between the eyes, unlike Texas which always have none.

Anyhow, I based these ideas on my own experiences on raising and collecting fish over the years, so who knows--I could be wrong about some things. If so, I don't mind learning new information, as I'm quite open minded. In the end, we all know there's never a 100% absolute regarding all species of Cichlids--which is why they're constantly being renamed, reclassified, etc.

To me, what matters most is that I am happy with my pets. :)

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it is WRONG to sell a hybrid as a pure breed. At least list them as what they are when you know it..

The pearls look like Dominant Cyano. Not Carpintes. Might be Carpinte x Cyano because the pearls Dont look like pure Cyanos either.

And yes you can tell Carpintes and Cyanos apart when they are small. They look nice.

You've done the first generation into making Red texas. Take the baby with the most pearls and breed it to a red fish. Not necessarily the mother but you can if you want to. I would find a quality red one for that. GL on your prject. Thanks for sharing
 
Nice. Thanks for the follow up post.

Id have guessed the opposite was true in those pics, that the carpintis pics you posted were tex and the tex pics were carpintis.
 
this is the kind of post that gives everyone a headache, because it triggers so many hot-buttons (hybrids, cyano vs carpinte, LFS problems, etc., etc.) . . . :grinno:

that's not a knock on anybody, it just looks like there is something for everyone here to comment on

thanks for posting that last pic; that is a very handsome male . . . if nothing else, you really do have some good looking fish
 
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