Massivore Question

RD.

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Seeing as I started this discussion, I would to thank Hikari USA for finally responding, and at least offering some type of explanation.

I would also like to make it crystal clear that this was never an attempt at any form of corporate espionage. I don't work for New Life International, nor was I inquiring on their behalf. I use the same user ID, email address, and IP everywhere that I go. The president of Hikari USA himself (and now their head researcher in Japan) are well aware of who I am, and what my user ID & email addy are. It's not as though I entered this discussion in stealth mode, and I easily could have. I also made it clear to the Hikari researcher that I was not expecting him to share any company secrets with me. Obviously he wouldn't, no matter who as doing the asking.

If Hikari feels they have a top secret form of "starch" that they use, and don't feel that their consumer base should be privy to that information, that's fine by me. I honestly never expected that this question would raise such a major stink among the masses, or elicit such a spiteful response from someone at Hikari. (as in referring to me as being notorious for spreading lies and half truths)

The comment about carnivores not eating starch is actually not factually correct.

I don't believe that anyone has said that, I know I certainly never did.
But that statement does come with a caveat, that being the vast majority of carnivorous species (at least those species that have to date been studied) do not assimilate carbohydrates/starch with the same efficiency as an omnivore, or a herbivore. Also, many terrestrial based starches come with the excess baggage of anti-nutritional matter, so from a nutritional & overall digestibilitty standpoint there can be a major difference between an aquatic based starch (such as algae, seaweed, spirulina, etc), and one derived from soybean, corn, etc. I think that it's safe to say that the vast majority carnivorous fish do not consume corn in the wild.

I'll now gladly bow out of this discussion, and respectfully allow the sponsors of this sub forum to continue with their education on this & other subjects.

Cheers!







 

Funky_Fish14

Gambusia
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Jun 28, 2007
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I must break in to this discussion.

HikariSalesUSA;4286542; said:
The relative rank of the ingredients, unless you have the actual recipe and ingredient profile in front of you, is not a good indicator of a diet's quality or composition. It is more imortant to judge the quality by the performance of that diet over time.
This statement is absurd. Many things 'turn out alright in the long run' in many aspects of life. May I refer to that example of dogs and dog food... look at all the dogs that seem to lead 'healthy and happy' lives, yet eat the junk dog food (which we know MOST dog food diets are).

Picture this:
I am a consumer standing in a store isle, staring at a rack of different foods for my show discus. Before me I see Tetra, Ocean Nutrition, Xtreme, NLS, Hikari, JoeBloeFishfood, etc... . Now, I look at the ingredient lists on the back of each can of [pellets in this case]. I see something like starch and wonder - 'wtf is this?'. Fishmeal, I understand... this is something along the lines of bologna that humans eat, (in this case, ground intestines, fins, lips, skin... basically the parts of a fish that dont make it to human food production line). Starch.. Starch... its in vegetables, plants, algaes, grains, CORN... starch can be included in it's pure form... or the way ingredients are listed on these food cans, as ground up corn meal, soy... you get the picture. I, the consumer, has no idea what this 'starch' means. Im also, potentially, a newer fish keeper. How am I supposed to know anything about the performance of these products over time and pick one on the shelf over the other?

Lots of people use hikari over ocean nutrition, etc... and say 'it has worked so well for ages', so has Science diet or ProPlan Dog food for many people. Doesn't mean its a good idea to use it.

I have nothing against hikari, NLS, ocean nutrition, etc.. (I use them all)... but answers like these in response to the consumer are unjust and ludicris. Would the answer have been different (or the question actually answered) if I had asked?

A simple answer to the question originally posted could suggest what this starch was derived from or how it is included into the diet. Not asking how or what portion it is added into the diet (which would reveal these 'trade secrets'), but maybe an answer such as "The starch inclusion is from a source of ground corn".

A poor and indirect answer to the consumer only makes it appear as though the company is trying to hide something. Labels that state "55% crude protein" and garbage like that only say that a bunch of garbage in the food registers in a lab test as a 'protein' encompasing 55% of the crude weight of the food. It does not say that the actual functional (and digestable protein) is only 14% of the food's weight. Things like these are the reasons why consumers are confused about foods and ask questions. Many foods can colour fish up and fatten them up, but many things make people look good and give them cancer. Any hikari rep should understand clearly what I am getting at.

Nice to see Hikari finally responded, too bad the question was never answered and only diverted to discuss inter-company slander(not saying anyone did, but the topic was diverted to this)

To anyone asking the questions or suggesting to email: As Neil stated, the point of a forum like this is to have an answer available to the public and for hikari to actually represent themselves and directly answer a question (as in a criminal trial, the actually suspect is usd, and not joe blow on the street that says he has talked to the suspect once before.) This forum is the trial, hikari is the suspect. When the suspect is queried, we dont need joe-blow to intervene with the suggestion of sending an email.

Also nobody please try to say im buddy-buddying with Neil, we've had our dissagreements... I just really hate to see the mis-representation or diversion from any company which is what Hikari has done in this thread.

Cheers,

Chris
 

RDFISHGUY

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rED O;4281235; said:
I love Hikari products! All of my fish love them. When I raise up small fish, I feed them massivour. They bulk up quick and develop excellent color! Here are a few pictures of my fish who were raised on and have a staple diet of Hikari products.







Hikari:headbang2
Your fish are ugly but the photography is good. Too bad its not yours. Your arowana has terrible PLJ and your oscars bottom jaw is equally deformed. Your rays are nice. I'll give you that but you aren't going to change anyone's mind by posting nice pictures of ugly fish.

This is a better representation for Hikari. This guy eats almost exclusively Hikari food sticks:


These guys all eat NLS exclusively:







So what! The question asked at the start of thread was one that I posed to RD. That question is still not answered. It wasn't to try to get any trade secrets or to have another ridiculous debate about which is better. It was a legitimate question. I asked because I want to know what the long term results will be if I continue to feed this to my arowana. How digestible is it? At the end of the day it will not matter as I will not be able to get Hikari in Canada once their current stock runs out or until they resolve their import issues.
 

HikariSalesUSA

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The comment about soybean, corn, etc. actually isn't factual. It could be correct if you were directly feeding non-processed or uncooked soy bean or corn to your carnivorous fish. In this case they might have difficulty digesting the raw material. But if a producer takes a raw material and has a proprietary process to convert it to a more usable nutrient for the fish this can radically impact the digestibility and the use by the fish of that ingredient. Again, Hikari(R) does more than just take stuff and make a food. We study each component and look for ways to make that component friendly to the digestive system of the fish. By doing so, we have been able to produce diets over many decades that have a very high feed efficiency. This allows smaller amounts of food to be used for the same growth (which also reduces your overall feeding bill) and also reduces the chances of fouling the water. Once again it's important to note that purely looking at an ingredient panel and deciding one ingredient or another is good or bad will never be as beneficial as using the product and noting the changes in your fish . Just be sure you are feeding the same amount as your prior choice for an accurate comparison. If you notice less growth and more water quality issues, you have a very clear answer about the overall ingredient quality and the digestibility. If on the other hand you notice increased growth, better color, more activity and no degradation of your water quality, you would be on to something good for your fish and your aquarium!

We're also very pleased to give everyone a heads up that Hikari(R) will start shipping to distributors throughout Canada in the next few days and should begin showing up on your LFS shelves shortly.
 

RDFISHGUY

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Nov 24, 2006
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HikariSalesUSA;4321434; said:
The comment about soybean, corn, etc. actually isn't factual. It could be correct if you were directly feeding non-processed or uncooked soy bean or corn to your carnivorous fish. In this case they might have difficulty digesting the raw material. But if a producer takes a raw material and has a proprietary process to convert it to a more usable nutrient for the fish this can radically impact the digestibility and the use by the fish of that ingredient. Again, Hikari(R) does more than just take stuff and make a food. We study each component and look for ways to make that component friendly to the digestive system of the fish. By doing so, we have been able to produce diets over many decades that have a very high feed efficiency. This allows smaller amounts of food to be used for the same growth (which also reduces your overall feeding bill) and also reduces the chances of fouling the water. Once again it's important to note that purely looking at an ingredient panel and deciding one ingredient or another is good or bad will never be as beneficial as using the product and noting the changes in your fish . Just be sure you are feeding the same amount as your prior choice for an accurate comparison. If you notice less growth and more water quality issues, you have a very clear answer about the overall ingredient quality and the digestibility. If on the other hand you notice increased growth, better color, more activity and no degradation of your water quality, you would be on to something good for your fish and your aquarium!

We're also very pleased to give everyone a heads up that Hikari(R) will start shipping to distributors throughout Canada in the next few days and should begin showing up on your LFS shelves shortly.

Thanks for the info. Good to hear it will be back on the shelves. I'm not sure what comment you are referring to regarding soybean and corn. I just wanted to know if you've done any studies regarding the source of starches used in your product. Specifically if any test subjects have been disected to see how much, if any, fat had built up around the organs of the fish involved in such tests. The high inclusion rate of carbs/starches seems a little weird for feeding a carnivorous fish.

I don't begin to fully understand fish nutrition but it seems odd that a carnivorous fish requires that much starch. The good news is my Super red arowana loves it and won't eat a lot of other frozen foods or commercial diets. Whether its the texture, paletability, or just simply the inclusion of the carbs, the result is he eats it. Lots of it. 30-60 pellets a day. I just want to be sure that such a prize fish is getting all of its nutrional needs met with no detrimental side effects. He shows no external signs of obesity but I wanted to know if all is well on the inside.
Many fish deaths have been attributed to fatty build up around the organs. This is ,or at least should be, a concern for all hobbyists.

The only other concern I have is the amount of vitamins in the food. The vitamin A, C and E content are significantly lower than that of NLS, specifically. I know that vitamin C , for sure , is a water soluble vitamin and therefore a higher inclusion rate would not hurt the fish as any excess vitamins would simply be excreted. I also see that niacin and B12 are included which is good, but once again, these are water soluble and a higher inclusion rate would be nice to see. Obviously you guys have more experience at this than I do so perhaps you can explain this to me.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and concerns and thanks for making a product that my arowana will eat.
 
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Darth Scohin

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Funky_Fish14;4313948; said:
Lots of people use hikari over ocean nutrition, etc... and say 'it has worked so well for ages', so has Science diet or ProPlan Dog food for many people. Doesn't mean its a good idea to use it.
It works until the parents dog has to go onto ID or Limited Ingredient Diets after 4 years I constantly find that 85% of people that feed Science Diet (or Iams or Beneful Pedigree or Purina) have their dogs on Hills Perscription food because the crap gets to them. After about 7 years the other 15% either become unhealthy from multiple problems (diabetes, Collitis, Cancer, Food Allergen, Hip Displasia etc).....

I'd like to akin Hikari and NLS to Blue Buffalo and Wellness both are good foods but when it comes down to it they are still equal competition....

I Love Both NLS and Hikari and Recommend Hikari 100% when looking for SA/CA/African Cichlids and Carnivorous fish.
 
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Dark Jester

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RD.;3909312; said:
According the ingredients listed on the Massivore Delite label, starch is the 3rd ingredient listed by dry weight. Could you tell me what that starch consists of, and what purpose such a large inclusion rate of starch plays in a diet that according to Hikari was developed for BIG carnivorous fish?

Thanks!
So... all of this and the question still hasn't been answered from what I read.

If 'starch' is the 3rd ingredient on the list, then there is a significant portion of it in the food. I don't think I have ever seen just 'starch' on an ingredient label though. If it's processed corn starch, the label says that. It doesn't have to say exactly how it's processed. If it's a proprietary process of liquifying it in a blender, boiling it for hours, and then distilling the liquid down into a concentrated form, doesn't matter. That wasn't the question.

What is the base ingredient that the 'starch' is made from?

I'm relatively new to the hobby. Still shopping around for foods. I have tried a few Hikari selections so far. Honestly the packaging just looks better than the others. My Fish seem to like it. Only other brands I've tried are TetraMin and Aqueon. Never tried NLS but I might at some point.

I don't know. When I see someone being dodgy about answering a simple direct question and pointing fingers at everyone else around them, it makes me wonder what they're trying to hide. Nobody asked for company secrets. We don't want missile launch codes. We're not even asking for the combo to your locker at school.

What is the starch?

If I don't see an answer to that direct question, then I promise you I'll never buy another Hikari product again. I'd rather use something that might be 'inferior' than something from a comapny that doesn't have the integrity and honor to answer a simple honest question from their customer.
 
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rED O

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RDFISHGUY;4320949; said:
Your fish are ugly but the photography is good
Okay buddy.. Well, its a silver arowana. Most silvers from LFS most likely have PLJ and DE in there genetic and its unavoidable. But growing this guy up to 30'' and having him with almost no DE and these amazing blue and silver colors on a silver is almost unheard of. So I think he is very nice for a silver. We all can't have high quality asian arowans.

The rays are stunner, and bred on hikari and had large healthy pups. The moto babies only ate hikari as a pellet and no competitors. I also grew out that RTC to a beauty of a cat.

And for the oscar, he is a nice looking fish. He does have a callus on his lip form digging, other then that nothing is really noticeable. I guess if you analyze any fish for long enough, you are bound to find a flaw. Unless you have fish with perfect genetics like yours...

——--|´¯|)——---
——--|—|————
——--|—|————
——--|—|————
—-/´¯/—/´¯\——
-/-/--/—/—/-|
(-(—(—(—/-)--)-
-\————\/--/
--\———— /—
—\-———-(——
—-\———-\——
—--\———-\—-

Sorry for hijacking
 
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Gun

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Dark jester
"So... all of this and the question still hasn't been answered from what I read.

If 'starch' is the 3rd ingredient on the list, then there is a significant portion of it in the food. I don't think I have ever seen just 'starch' on an ingredient label though. If it's processed corn starch, the label says that. It doesn't have to say exactly how it's processed. If it's a proprietary process of liquifying it in a blender, boiling it for hours, and then distilling the liquid down into a concentrated form, doesn't matter. That wasn't the question.

What is the base ingredient that the 'starch' is made from?

I'm relatively new to the hobby. Still shopping around for foods. I have tried a few Hikari selections so far. Honestly the packaging just looks better than the others. My Fish seem to like it. Only other brands I've tried are TetraMin and Aqueon. Never tried NLS but I might at some point.

I don't know. When I see someone being dodgy about answering a simple direct question and pointing fingers at everyone else around them, it makes me wonder what they're trying to hide. Nobody asked for company secrets. We don't want missile launch codes. We're not even asking for the combo to your locker at school.

What is the starch?

If I don't see an answer to that direct question, then I promise you I'll never buy another Hikari product again. I'd rather use something that might be 'inferior' than something from a comapny that doesn't have the integrity and honor to answer a simple honest question from their customer."

I agree, why make that simple question this complicated.
please make it simple, Hikari(R).

btw i also use hkr food stc 4 my asian aro, as the 3rd ingredient also the same,
i want to know too.

also thanksZ to RD. for starting this thread.
 
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