Most Colourful SA/CA?

[dogofwar]

Crossing one Heros species to another (e.g. H. appendiculatus to H. efasciatus) would be hybridization. Whether crossing underscribed species (e.g. H. efasciatus to H. sp. red shoulder) is technically hybridization is less clear and would depend on the actual classification, which hasn't been done. Changes in taxonomy that split a single species into multiple (e.g. convicts) or lump geographic varients into different species (or just the opposite) can change hybrids into line bred fish and vice versa. Without the fish changing.

My point isn't to try to come up with the definitive definition of cichlid hybridization vs. line breeding (many have tried and failed), it's to point out that it's hypocritical to include some ornamental fish in the "most colorful" list...and not others.

Like trying to have a "most colorful livebearer" thread...and excluding some fancy swordtails (probably developed through hybridization) and including others (of unknown provenance)... The fish were developed to have super natural colors. That's the point!

Matt

It's why I said 2 Heros that I know of as there is the possibility that there are more regional variants that can be classified within the group I'm unaware of. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. Hybrids are offspring resulting from the interbreeding between two animals or plants of different species. So as far as I understand those definitions breeding within the same species isn't hybridization. So breeding a Heros to another Heros wouldn't be a hybrid.

Flowerhorns which are bred from different species are as far as my understanding. It's why I gave the example of the mule and horse. Both are genetically similar but a horse is a horse and a mule is a mule and a donkey is a donkey. They look alike and are classified as equines but breeding between them is hybridization because a donkey and a horse aren't the same species. I hope I'm being clear in my point as you've only really rebutted how many Heros there are.

This is my understanding of the term hybrid and if you have a different one I'm glad to hear it, but would like you to explain then what a hybrid is. It is also my understanding of line breeding and color morphs hence my opinion. You seem to disagree but aren't laying the terms or standards to your understanding of the definitions so I'm confused. What is a hybrid in your opinion and what separates them from other terminologies such as line breeding?

 

[ryansmith83]

It's why I said 2 Heros that I know of as there is the possibility that there are more regional variants that can be classified within the group I'm unaware of. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. Hybrids are offspring resulting from the interbreeding between two animals or plants of different species. So as far as I understand those definitions breeding within the same species isn't hybridization. So breeding a Heros to another Heros wouldn't be a hybrid.

Heros is a genus, not a species. The genus contains four or five valid, distinct species, depending on whether or not you accept Kullander's combination of H. efasciatus and H. appendiculatus. If the crossing of two separate species is hybridization, then yes, breeding one type of severum to another is hybridization.

If you cross a Heros notatus with a Heros efasciatus (which is possible, given that I've done it) you will have hybrids. They are neither pure notatus nor pure efasciatus. This is one of the reasons I culled the fry -- I do not personally believe in putting more mutt severums into the hobby. The aquarium-bred strains of severums have existed for decades and there's no doubt in my mind that they're a jumbled mix of several Heros species. So really you could assume every severum is a hybrid mutt of some sort unless you can trace its lineage back to wild fish.

Just my 0.02.

 

[dogofwar]

+1

Matt

Heros is a genus, not a species. The genus contains four or five valid, distinct species, depending on whether or not you accept Kullander's combination of H. efasciatus and H. appendiculatus. If the crossing of two separate species is hybridization, then yes, breeding one type of severum to another is hybridization.

If you cross a Heros notatus with a Heros efasciatus (which is possible, given that I've done it) you will have hybrids. They are neither pure notatus nor pure efasciatus. This is one of the reasons I culled the fry -- I do not personally believe in putting more mutt severums into the hobby. The aquarium-bred strains of severums have existed for decades and there's no doubt in my mind that they're a jumbled mix of several Heros species. So really you could assume every severum is a hybrid mutt of some sort unless you can trace its lineage back to wild fish.

Just my 0.02.

 

[PDRed302]

Big fan of the Hoplarchus psittacus*(true parrot) myself.

Quick camera phone pic of Abe in my tank:

Also a big fan of vieja zonatum and red terrors but I have neither, so no pics

 

[SePPii]

Severums


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[krustyart]

One must ask if the MOST COLORFUL SA/CA would be the fish with the single most intense color OR the most different colors on the same fish or some combination of both. You will never get anyone to agree with each other as to which fish is the most colorful without some clarification of the conditions and probably not even then! I understand the intent was just to get lots of good pics posted....

 

[koltsixx]

My point isn't to try to come up with the definitive definition of cichlid hybridization vs. line breeding (many have tried and failed), it's to point out that it's hypocritical to include some ornamental fish in the "most colorful" list...and not others.

Like trying to have a "most colorful livebearer" thread...and excluding some fancy swordtails (probably developed through hybridization) and including others (of unknown provenance)... The fish were developed to have super natural colors. That's the point!

Matt

I think the OP only excluded certain fish due to personal preference and it's okay that he's looking for answers from others who may share those preferences. I would agree that excluding certain fish if posted in the General section wouldn't make sense, but here do to the basis of the forum section it's logical. If I'm understanding the under tones of your posts your disagree with the exclusion of hybrids etc in such discussions which I can agree with if the forum was different. I myself am a fan of hybrids and don't understand why there's so much controversy surrounding them but opinions are clouded with personal feelings and I may be blind as to the reason for such controversy.

Heros is a genus, not a species. The genus contains four or five valid, distinct species, depending on whether or not you accept Kullander's combination of H. efasciatus and H. appendiculatus. If the crossing of two separate species is hybridization, then yes, breeding one type of severum to another is hybridization.

If you cross a Heros notatus with a Heros efasciatus (which is possible, given that I've done it) you will have hybrids. They are neither pure notatus nor pure efasciatus. This is one of the reasons I culled the fry -- I do not personally believe in putting more mutt severums into the hobby. The aquarium-bred strains of severums have existed for decades and there's no doubt in my mind that they're a jumbled mix of several Heros species. So really you could assume every severum is a hybrid mutt of some sort unless you can trace its lineage back to wild fish.

Just my 0.02.

Thank you, I didn't realize Heros was a genus and that it's actually Heros efasciatus etc was the actual species. It does prove that my understanding is flawed but only adds to my confusion as to what is the difference between line breeding and hybrids. It makes me wonder then what makes certain hybrids more capable to reproduce than others and why there is no different classifications describing animals that are genetically compatible enough to reproduce and others being incompatible enough not to be capable. In either case I thank both you and dogofwar for educating me. I actually enjoy intelligent debates as well as learning something new or understanding certain aspects of things more fully.

 

[Jamesy]

Rams, Apistos, Festaes, Flowerhorns etc...

 

[up130]

It's hard to pick just one but here's my top few
Festae, Umbriferum, Lyonsi, Brasiliensis, Islantum, and Synspilum

I would say Festae has to be the most colorful IMO

 

[dogofwar]

I also enjoy the discussion for discussion's sake

Cheers,
Matt

I think the OP only excluded certain fish due to personal preference and it's okay that he's looking for answers from others who may share those preferences. I would agree that excluding certain fish if posted in the General section wouldn't make sense, but here do to the basis of the forum section it's logical. If I'm understanding the under tones of your posts your disagree with the exclusion of hybrids etc in such discussions which I can agree with if the forum was different. I myself am a fan of hybrids and don't understand why there's so much controversy surrounding them but opinions are clouded with personal feelings and I may be blind as to the reason for such controversy.



Thank you, I didn't realize Heros was a genus and that it's actually Heros efasciatus etc was the actual species. It does prove that my understanding is flawed but only adds to my confusion as to what is the difference between line breeding and hybrids. It makes me wonder then what makes certain hybrids more capable to reproduce than others and why there is no different classifications describing animals that are genetically compatible enough to reproduce and others being incompatible enough not to be capable. In either case I thank both you and dogofwar for educating me. I actually enjoy intelligent debates as well as learning something new or understanding certain aspects of things more fully.