My Ball Python

[Ophiuchus]

I would put money on that boa being bitten by a rat that was much too big for it to constrict safely. Keeper error, not snake error.

Ball pythons have been labeled as "picky" eaters because keepers keep them in sub-optimal conditions and do silly unnecessary things like remove them from the safety of their enclosures to be fed.

edit: I haven't been offended in any way so far by any posts or disagreements with my opinion on this (I've heard them all before countless times)...I'm not handing out any insults and expect the same in return, I think that this has been a good discussion so far and hope we can continue in a mature way.

Well, I have to admit I am offended by your opinion, because you just said yourself that what I'm doing is silly.

I still haven't heard your counter-argument for my experience. If you had read my posts throroughly, you would already know that:

a.) I do NOT feed live prey items too large for the snake(s). Maybe you and I differ on what is "too large." As mentioned before, I try to keep the prey smaller than the thickest part of the snake. For a BP, nothing larger than a small rat.

b.) also, I mentioned twice already that, according to what I've witnessed, bites didn't occur from reluctant snakes (and I'm specifically including ball pythons, mind you...which were fed outside their cage); it was because the pythons struck at wrong angles.

So, I'm not feeding prey that's too large and these are ball pythons that have very strong feeding responses. What, pray tell, am I doing wrong? Is there some magical spell that renders the gnawing of rodents useless if they're offered inside the snakes' cage?

 

[walls]

I never said anything was out of control Walls i said it was getting heated, and if you've been around this site for a while with arguments eventually come insults, and then with insults the mods get ban happy.....I completely agree with you on the subject, it is cheaper and a hell of a lot safer to feed prekilled, so no need to turn on me.....after all i could be complaining about how much you all are de-railing my thread, but i'm not i've read every post and i'm truly enjoying reading the debate and learning.........

Hey ill turn on you if I want to!

I have no intentions on having a brawl here I just want to see the best possible advice offered to new herpers.

 

[walls]

Rodent bites have a lot more to do with keeper error..
I would put money on that boa being bitten by a rat that was much too big for it to constrict safely. Keeper error, not snake error.

Those are different snakes, and do you really want to point the finger at the keeper and not the frightened rodent? You think that is the case ALL THE TIME??

I have read and seen pics of far too many of these instances. And you can write it off as keeper errer but when it happened to me there was no other error on my part aside from feeding a live rodent. I had to learn the hard way......maybe some others do as well.

 

[elevatethis]

Where are these "ball pythons" that you speak of? Your sig says you own one...is that out of date?

My counter-argument is that same as my original argument I made - you have ignored all the points I've made about it being safe to feed live prey to properly conditioned ball pythons.

There is no question or debate that feeding pk or ft prey eliminates the risk of a rodent bite.

I never implied that you fed too large of prey. I was referring to the posts that walls made of pictures of a boa that was mauled by a rat much larger than it should ever have come into contact with.

I've seen my snakes grab rats at every angle imaginable...head, side, leg, even tail - still no bites. I feed prey no larger than weanling rats even to adult females - these are rats that are no older than 4 weeks.

The 'magical spell' that takes place when feeding a ball python inside its comfort zone is that they are more efficient killers. They are ambush predators and placing them in a large empty box with a rodent - who has a clear shot at the snake - puts the snake at a huge disadvantage and neutralizes a lot of what they've been designed to do.

I know several large scale ball python breeders that have found live feeding of small rodent prey to be beneficial to their collections. These are the keepers that have paved the way for me and I try to emulate what they do. I don't want to name any names, but if you were at all familiar with the ball biz, you'd recognize them right away.

 

[elevatethis]

After reading all of this...it goes back again to some doing things one way, and others doing it another way, with both sides being firmly convicted in their beliefs. A keeper with REAL experience realizes that there's more than one way to keep these animals we all love.

What any new keeper reading this should take out of this is to get educated, do research, talk to people, and decide what is the best course of action for you and your animals based upon that educated decision.

My advice to a new keeper that is uncertain about whether to feed live or f/t, is that if they have any doubt - go with f/t.

FWIW...I feed my boa f/t medium rats...the teeth on mediums seem much too daunting to take a risk. The small, barely walking weaned rats my by pythons get don't pose any thread to my ball pythons, so I am totally comfortable feeding live to them.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Where are these "ball pythons" that you speak of? Your sig says you own one...is that out of date?

I currently have the one (since '93 actually) and have owned several in the past. I've also been the main care-giver for more in the petstores I've worked at.

My counter-argument is that same as my original argument I made - you have ignored all the points I've made about it being safe to feed live prey to properly conditioned ball pythons.

I haven't ignored them. They just never explained my personal experience.

I've seen my snakes grab rats at every angle imaginable...head, side, leg, even tail - still no bites.

So its just dumb luck on your part, then?

The 'magical spell' that takes place when feeding a ball python inside its comfort zone is that they are more efficient killers. They are ambush predators and placing them in a large empty box with a rodent - who has a clear shot at the snake - puts the snake at a huge disadvantage and neutralizes a lot of what they've been designed to do.

How does that make any difference whether the snake is hiding behind a rock or not? First we have to assume that the safest place for a snake to strike its victim is the head, supposedly an attempt to incapacitate the dangerous jaws. If that's the case, then it would be ideal for the rodent to be facing the snake, rendering the element of a surprise ambush irrelevant. Obviously, it is not ideal for the snake to strike in the hindquarters, because (as my experience suggests), it increases the risk of the prey biting its attacker.

Your theory has holes in it, but it has merit if it can be proven that a side strike to the neck is the safest target.

 

[elevatethis]

I currently have the one (since '93 actually) and have owned several in the past. I've also been the main care-giver for more in the petstores I've worked at.



I haven't ignored them. They just never explained my personal experience.

You are rejecting points of my argument because they don't match your own personal experience? I have learned to care for my ball pythons by talking to breeders who produce ball python morphs and sell them to people all over the world. So what if my argument doesn't match your experience?

So its just dumb luck on your part, then?

Its called "knowing what you are doing" and being ready to intervene should something go wrong. I have, in a few instances that I can count on one hand, used forceps to "distract" a rodent being constricted that had its teeth within biting range.

How does that make any difference whether the snake is hiding behind a rock or not? First we have to assume that the safest place for a snake to strike its victim is the head, supposedly an attempt to incapacitate the dangerous jaws. If that's the case, then it would be ideal for the rodent to be facing the snake, rendering the element of a surprise ambush irrelevant. Obviously, it is not ideal for the snake to strike in the hindquarters, because (as my experience suggests), it increases the risk of the prey biting its attacker.

It absolutely makes a difference! A ball pythons environment is everything to them and they know it in and out. Also, ball pythons are designed to take rodents from a variety of angles, I've seen them all, and I promise you, a healthy, hydrated, well treated, quality feeder rodent has no clue whats going on and never sees it coming.

Your theory has holes in it, but it has merit if it can be proven that a side strike to the neck is the safest target.

Again, snakes can safely constrict animals from a variety of angles. Very seldom does the rodent have an opportunity to bite, and as a keeper who feeds live, I monitor each feeding to ensure that no mishaps take place, and know what to do should, on rare occasion, the rodent be in a position to bite.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Its called "knowing what you are doing" and being ready to intervene should something go wrong. I have, in a few instances that I can count on one hand, used forceps to "distract" a rodent being constricted that had its teeth within biting range.

So you admit that in those instances, if you do not intervent, the snake would've likely been bitten?

It absolutely makes a difference! A ball pythons environment is everything to them and they know it in and out. Also, ball pythons are designed to take rodents from a variety of angles, I've seen them all, and I promise you, a healthy, hydrated, well treated, quality feeder rodent has no clue whats going on and never sees it coming.

Again, snakes can safely constrict animals from a variety of angles. Very seldom does the rodent have an opportunity to bite, and as a keeper who feeds live, I monitor each feeding to ensure that no mishaps take place, and know what to do should, on rare occasion, the rodent be in a position to bite.

Of course, I carefully monitor live feedings for just the same reasons. You just confirmed my point. It still doesn't account for why these "rare" occasions can happen so frequently, even with careful monitoring.

 

[walls]

"I never implied that you fed too large of prey. I was referring to the posts that walls made of pictures of a boa that was mauled by a rat much larger than it should ever have come into contact with."

Once again I would like to add that that is NOT one snake. Also just how do you know that the rat that did the damage was too large?? What level of expertise are you using to confirm this??
Im just wondering because you seem so sure on this while I know otherwise.


"I know several large scale ball python breeders that have found live feeding of small rodent prey to be beneficial to their collections."

Just exactly what are the benefits of feeding live rodents? I would really like a detailed answer on this statement because it has already been proven that there is no nutritional difference, it is not safer, and it does not benefit the snake physically or psychologically. So what is it that i am missing here??

 

[elevatethis]

So you admit that in those instances, if you do not intervent, the snake would've likely been bitten?

Not likely, but it just made me feel better to distract the rodent for a few seconds before it became completely incapacitated during constriction. I've missed a few of these before, and even seen the rodent "bite down" before. Still, no damage done in those cases.

Just exactly what are the benefits of feeding live rodents? I would really like a detailed answer on this statement because it has already been proven that there is no nutritional difference, it is not safer, and it does not benefit the snake physically or psychologically. So what is it that i am missing here??

Go back and read everything I've said. You guys keep making statements like "it is not safer to feed live" and I agreed with you. I'm not going to keep re-wording my argument so you guys can pick it apart and ask the same questions again.

I'll restate this though - understand that REAL EXPERIENCE teaches you that there's more than one way to keep these snakes successfully.