My Red Discus - Before & After Carophyll Pink

[RD.]

Your perception of CP is just that, your perception/opinion.

Just trying to keep things real, Tony. I could say the same thing about your constant use of the term "safe", when in fact you have zero data to support those claims. Just your perception, and opinion, with little to no real data to support it.

As an example, you state the following on your website:

Will feeding more than the recommended dosage or longer period of time harm my fishes?
No, CAROPHYLL® Pink contained natural plant extracts and do not contained hormone that can harm fishes. If feed more than recommended dosage of (200ppm) the color will showed up quicker and redder, any excess, fishes will just excrete as waste through their gills and as feces.

Yet you cannot supply a single non-biased 3rd party feed trial from an accredited institution that supports that statement.

The reality is, neither you, nor your supplier has the slightest clue what type of long term effects may potentially take place in any tropical species of fish when fed CP long term, especially at the inclusion rates that you recommend. You even go so far as to claim that CP contains natural plant extracts. Really?

They only supplementing with this dosage for a period of 5 - 10 days.

Right, and when that wears off, then it's another 5-10 days, and when that wears off then another 5-10 days, and so on & so on & so on.....

What's that old saying - "there's a sucker born every minute".

Best of luck on your new business venture.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

he is claiming its safe because of his experience(ie same thing as a study) it has proved to be safe. same way some people claim certain stuff is safe and effective without a study. they are doing thier own study.

Thank you, for pointing out the error. I'll change it on my website. the dosage that I'm recommending on my website is what have worked, and so far have shown to be safe, for most of the breeders I've conversed with. They only supplementing with this dosage for a period of 5 - 10 days. 50-100ppm would probably worked too, but going to take much longer. As I've stated on my website, I'm just started experimenting with CP, and the information currently on my website are what was provided to me by my supplier, friends and limited personal experience. I'm hoping that more people will start experimenting with CP so we would have a better understanding of it. Not from perception, speculation and opinion. Your perception of CP is just that, your perception/opinion. Although, I understand that your opinions carried lot of weight here at MFK.

Again, you keep bringing up the deception by SE Asian breeders/farms. I'm offering these products here in NA, where most are hobbyist, not commercial breeders. Most will use it on their own fishes and not for deception.

You've posted 2 beautiful pictures of Aulonocara Rubescens peacocks just to show that natural enhancer worked very well, I've always stated that if one find that natural products worked well for them, then I'm all for it.

Tony

^exactly. its his opinion. There is no data on its safety because not enough people use it and record results. Try it and record the results. Then and ONLY then can u pass judgement on its safety. Ur(rd and others) opinon on its safety dont mean squat. U have no data to back it up, nothing.

RD, you keep mentioning the governements reg on its use with salmon.

1, things affect every animal differently. While we can eat something, some animals cant eat it and vise versa. Perfect example is our reaction to poison ivy.

2, You cant really use the gov to back up ur arguement. If there is a study thats one thing, but the gov has a history of doing stupid things(i.e. trying hr669 etc)


side note, wonder what this and other stuff like it would do to a gar. hmmm

 

[Cookie*]

There is simply no reason to be experimenting on fish if what you are trying to achieve can be achieved naturally with diet or well bred lines. Someone doing their own experiment does not make it a study, especially when done by a biased person. Tony has plenty to gain by calling it safe, considering he sells the stuff.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

there is simply no reason not to. Everyone is tryin to build a better mouse trap, same thing tony is doin. He is simply tryin to do something better for less, same thing everyone else is doin. Its what u do to make money.

and he does it himself, so yeah it doesnt make a study, but it does make it someones experience. People have to experiment to find out how it works and affects fish.

You know how they test medications? They give it to people and see how it does

find someone that has had major issues with it, then u can call it unsafe. calling it unsafe without any information to back it up is fear mongering. You guys are like those people that say the pythons in florida can go and take over the entire way up to NY state. Nothing backing up that statement but you make it anyways.

Do you have any reason to think its unsafe, other than ur statement about its synthetic?

 

[RD.]

Oivay ......

he is claiming its safe because of his experience(ie same thing as a study) it has proved to be safe.

1. Tony has already clearly stated that he has very limited personal experience with this product. (a few months)

2. You are assuming that I don't have any experience with seeing negative results in tropical fish that have been fed this product. While I can't post any conclusive results from long term feed trials (as in years), unlike yourself, I've seen enough to know what I'm talking about, and to know that there already is a *better mousetrap*.

Try it and record the results. Then and ONLY then can u pass judgement on its safety.

See #2 above. I don't need to smoke a bowl full of dog hair twice a day for 10 yrs to understand that it won't be overly healthy for my lungs.
If that's how you roll, then fly at it. I'm certainly not attempting to tell anyone what to do with their fish.

From a previous post of mine;

If it is only used for personal use, by people who enjoy keeping genetically poor specimens, enhanced by artifical means to look like something they are most definitely not, that's certainly fine by me. Whatever floats your boat.

Is that clear enough for you?

RD, you keep mentioning the governements reg on its use with salmon.

Correct, for the simple reason that the only level of CP that has been deemed to be safe for finfish, is 100 mg/kg, and that was only for feed that has been supplemented for fish who's end use was destined for human consumption. This level does not apply to long term use for ornamental species of fish. Yet this is the same information that Tony has used on his website to deem it safe for tropical fish.

Is CAROPHYLL® Pink safe?
Yes, it has more than 20 year’s track records in the agriculture usage. The product is an approved feed ingredient in all major agriculture country in the world including US and European Union (EU). Farmed salmon and shrimps feed with CAROPHYLL® Pink from overseas are approved for import into US and EU, all of which have the strictest regulations and inspections.

I'm simply pointing out the obvious, or at least what should by now be obvious for anyone that's actually taken the time to read this entire discussion. Almost everything in life has some level of toxicity. Too much Vitamin A can even become toxic to a fish (hypervitaminosis)

You can't have it both ways, as in using the FDA's level (100 mg/kg)as proof of its safety, and then advise that hobbyists feed 20 x that amount to get optimum results. Just because someone like Andrew Soh says it's safe, doesn't make it so. BTW - with regards to feeding discus CP Andrew Soh has also stated:

As in most things, though not harmful, feeding too much is not good.

And in the following recent discussion Andrew Soh states:
http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=15699

AS to carophyll pink, in a big picture, there is no physical damage to fishes fed with it. But it has been observed that young discus fed heavily with it may retard growth or slow growth. But even in high dose, damage to organs have not been observed. It is a totally synthetic form of Natural Rose which is retrieved from spirulina.

Interestingly enough, according to Mr. Soh excessive amounts of CP may retard growth in young discus. No explanation, or data to support that or his comment about not damaging organs, just his opinion. But interesting in the fact that he even a supporter of CP has seen or experienced negative results when too much is fed to a fish.

As previously mentioned, CP does not contain natural plant extracts, either, yet this fact (cough-cough) is also stated by this vendor, just as Mr. Soh states in the quote above that Naturose is retrieved from spirulina. (which it is not) Haematococcus pluvialis & Spirulina are two different & distinct forms of microalgae.

Of course this is the same person who states:

Hormone...Testosterone is generally safe if you know how to use it as explained in my book. As with everything else, too much is harmful.

I'm quoting Andrew Soh as he is a well known breeder in Singapore, and it appears that much of what Tony states (including his dosage rates) are based on Andrew's experience and/or opinion. I've read his discus book (Discus - The Naked Truth), but decided to pass on his book "A Thrust That Lasts", which apparently is based on his opinion on how to make love to a women.


This has nothing to do with fear mongering, and everything to do with common sense, and yes, personal opinion. IMHO there are plenty of beautiful strains of fish out there, including discus, without the need of creating artifical looking specimens by pumping them up with what I consider massive amounts of CP. From an economical point of view, IMO it also makes absolutely no sense to spend $30 on 10 grams of CP to spray on 4 lb's of pellet feed, when you can get the results seen in the previous photos posted by spending $50 on 5 lb's of a premium fish food.

But as Tony stated previously, this is all just my perception, and my opinion. Please feel free to spend your money how you choose, and/or supplement your fish food with whatever you feel comfortable with.


P.S. - just a FYI

The makers of Naturose astaxanthin (Cyanotech Corp.) have not been producing or selling that ingredient for animal feed since March 2008, and the shelf life of that product (even when stored under ideal temperature) is less than 12 months.

I personally confirmed the info above via a company rep at Cyanotech last year, as I continue to see a number of online vendors still selling & advertising Naturose.


Cheers

 

[Yanbbrox]

 

[papawoody]

i don't see it as such a big deal . people bake themselves in the sun and in tanning salons to color themselves up and thats proven to be bad for you . people eat at mcdonalds and thats bad for you . and of course its not cool when sellers deceive their buyers . i appreciate rd's input as i think its best to keep your fish healthy and its good to get both sides of the story . but in reality many hobbyists are still feeding goldfish to their fish so not every one has their fish on a health kick .

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

Oivay ......



1. Tony has already clearly stated that he has very limited personal experience with this product. (a few months)

2. You are assuming that I don't have any experience with seeing negative results in tropical fish that have been fed this product. While I can't post any conclusive results from long term feed trials (as in years), unlike yourself, I've seen enough to know what I'm talking about, and to know that there already is a *better mousetrap*.



See #2 above. I don't need to smoke a bowl full of dog hair twice a day for 10 yrs to understand that it won't be overly healthy for my lungs.
If that's how you roll, then fly at it. I'm certainly not attempting to tell anyone what to do with their fish.

From a previous post of mine;


Is that clear enough for you?





Correct, for the simple reason that the only level of CP that has been deemed to be safe for finfish, is 100 mg/kg, and that was only for feed that has been supplemented for fish who's end use was destined for human consumption. This level does not apply to long term use for ornamental species of fish. Yet this is the same information that Tony has used on his website to deem it safe for tropical fish.



I'm simply pointing out the obvious, or at least what should by now be obvious for anyone that's actually taken the time to read this entire discussion. Almost everything in life has some level of toxicity. Too much Vitamin A can even become toxic to a fish (hypervitaminosis)

You can't have it both ways, as in using the FDA's level (100 mg/kg)as proof of its safety, and then advise that hobbyists feed 20 x that amount to get optimum results. Just because someone like Andrew Soh says it's safe, doesn't make it so. BTW - with regards to feeding discus CP Andrew Soh has also stated:

And in the following recent discussion Andrew Soh states:
http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=15699



Interestingly enough, according to Mr. Soh excessive amounts of CP may retard growth in young discus. No explanation, or data to support that or his comment about not damaging organs, just his opinion. But interesting in the fact that he even a supporter of CP has seen or experienced negative results when too much is fed to a fish.

As previously mentioned, CP does not contain natural plant extracts, either, yet this fact (cough-cough) is also stated by this vendor, just as Mr. Soh states in the quote above that Naturose is retrieved from spirulina. (which it is not) Haematococcus pluvialis & Spirulina are two different & distinct forms of microalgae.

Of course this is the same person who states:

I'm quoting Andrew Soh as he is a well known breeder in Singapore, and it appears that much of what Tony states (including his dosage rates) are based on Andrew's experience and/or opinion. I've read his discus book (Discus - The Naked Truth), but decided to pass on his book "A Thrust That Lasts", which apparently is based on his opinion on how to make love to a women.


This has nothing to do with fear mongering, and everything to do with common sense, and yes, personal opinion. IMHO there are plenty of beautiful strains of fish out there, including discus, without the need of creating artifical looking specimens by pumping them up with what I consider massive amounts of CP. From an economical point of view, IMO it also makes absolutely no sense to spend $30 on 10 grams of CP to spray on 4 lb's of pellet feed, when you can get the results seen in the previous photos posted by spending $50 on 5 lb's of a premium fish food.

But as Tony stated previously, this is all just my perception, and my opinion. Please feel free to spend your money how you choose, and/or supplement your fish food with whatever you feel comfortable with.


P.S. - just a FYI

The makers of Naturose astaxanthin (Cyanotech Corp.) have not been producing or selling that ingredient for animal feed since March 2008, and the shelf life of that product (even when stored under ideal temperature) is less than 12 months.

I personally confirmed the info above via a company rep at Cyanotech last year, as I continue to see a number of online vendors still selling & advertising Naturose.


Cheers

im not gonna continue to argue with u. U can not post any information posted, or really anything to say its not safe. All you can say is its synthetic so its not safe.

BTW the FDA regards fish for human consumption. NOT hobby fish. So what does that have to do with anything?

 

[RD.]

All you can say is its synthetic so its not safe.

I have never once said that.

BTW the FDA regards fish for human consumption. NOT hobby fish. So what does that have to do with anything?

My point exactly. You might want to go back & actually read what I posted.


papawoody - I totally agree with you. I'm quite certain that there are far worse things that are taking place in some hobbyists tanks, I was simply pointing out what I saw as flaws in the logic of feeding CP.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that anyone feeding CP here & there at reasonable inclusion rates are going to have their fishes livers exploding.

Just offering another perspective from the other side of the fence.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

that there is. faaaaarrr worse.

I think we are both in agreement. I think we just crossed oddly. I have no issue with proper usage, and not over dosing. not sure what the proper dose is, but doin it safely and being careful i have no problems with it same as you.

Do i think its dangerous? no, but im sure it has the capabilitys too if too much is added.