once again b4 you go off tanting check the collection trip vids and you will see the same blues you see in the aquarium environment, same with the blacks. As far as opinions check the new thread as pics post up and you tell me your opinion 
New cichlids! Location F!
- Thread starter Modest_Man
- Start date
- Status
Nothing I said was directed towards you RD, like Jason I value your expertise and have sought your advice as well. As far as A. citrinellus, and A. labiatus I couldn't begin to tell you anything about those as that is a fish I will never keep myself. My whole stink is that there are no made up locations but they had to be called something to keep them disclosed so X and Z were chosen, no big deal.
That's the point: The reason that some umbees (or whatever) are darker ("black") than others is because they have adapted to be darker to survive. The same reason that some are brown or zebra-striped or polka-dotted.
Whether aquarists like blue, black, purple or orange fish has nothing to do with why these fish are what they are in the wild.
Mixing them to suit your perception of "quality" is the opposite of maintaining them (as much as possible) to how Mother Nature intended...
Matt
Whether aquarists like blue, black, purple or orange fish has nothing to do with why these fish are what they are in the wild.
Mixing them to suit your perception of "quality" is the opposite of maintaining them (as much as possible) to how Mother Nature intended...
Matt
once again b4 you go off tanting check the collection trip vids and you will see the same blues you see in the aquarium environment, same with the blacks. As far as opinions check the new thread as pics post up and you tell me your opinion
See my previous post with regards to citrinellus. The first person to collect & bring that species back to the USA in the early 70's thought the same thing. He later found out just how wrong he was, and by that time it was too late as some of these fish were bred, and distributed to other breeders. The rest as they say is history, and is exactly why 40+ years later almost every fish found at your LFS is of mixed blood. (Midevils)
Matt's points are very valid ones.
For me, this has nothing to do with the location names.
Wow. Lots going on here. Lots of points have been made. My big question is if these fish could ever have the possibility of being a new species or subspecies? Seems like there are claims that they are due to some new made up names. But what has been done to either confirm or deny this? Any genetics? Morphometrics? Holotypes? Any work with scientists or just hearsay? "Oh yeah they look different" doesn't cut it for ichthyologists. I don't find it a random coincidence that those of us not jumping on the UMBEEBANDWAGON on here tend to be the more scientifically orientated people. You can claim claim claim all you want, but unless something is done involving actual ichthyology nothing lasting will come of it. Think about it, you could have a lasting legacy of a species new to science, yet all that has happened is GORILLUS. I think that's why a lot of us just kind of chuckle and shake our heads. Collecting fish is great, but I personally would work towards describing a new species (or confirming it's the same species) rather than try to make it some sort of status symbol.
My guys are all Location F, but that doesn't mean jack ****. Rightly so. The same can be said (unfortunately) about GORILLUS, X, and Z, and it's a waste because there was the possibility of something new.
Have fun calling me more names, but it's true.
As to the only question directed at me in here, the woody debris was collected at my local river and has been chewed upon by beavers. It has been water logged and sinks naturally from its time riverside.
My guys are all Location F, but that doesn't mean jack ****. Rightly so. The same can be said (unfortunately) about GORILLUS, X, and Z, and it's a waste because there was the possibility of something new.
Have fun calling me more names, but it's true.
As to the only question directed at me in here, the woody debris was collected at my local river and has been chewed upon by beavers. It has been water logged and sinks naturally from its time riverside.
There is no bandwagon. I just see a negative person crying for attention trying to be Mr Buzzkill. Proof is the fact you started this thread , and in the manner you started it.
If I recall , UMBEEKING did mention something about having an ichthyologist working on the gorillus umbees.
This has definitely has been an interesting read. But from someone that is just following along, it appears to me that it has ran its course. The naysayers are not budging and the believers are not budging. So now its getting old reading the same things said, but with different words.
My opinion, I agree to a degree with the naysayers, but I also agree a bit with the believers. I completely understand Chris' reasons for what he says, and I also agree with keeping pure. I currently have a beautiful WC pair of CR Dovii, and never think of spawning with either one of them a Dovii from a different local. But saying that, I am also growing out a group of a dozen WC Festae from various locals and plan on pairing up the best looking male and female. As for the Devils/midas debate, I myself am doing my best at trying to breed true Devil strains and try and get some true Devils out there. (before you jump on me RD,
I know what you are going to say.) 
I am doing everything I can to learn, research, and produce a true Devil
Regarding the discussion, I guess I am on the fence, which explains why I have not got involved. But from reading it all, it sounds like now, just bickering over the same debate and nobody is budging and the discussion is going nowhere. JMO.
BUT, I will say this, Modest-man when I read your original post. I as an outsider could tell that what you said was meant one way and one way only. As a personal jab. If I am wrong, I apologize, but it looked pretty obvious.
My opinion, I agree to a degree with the naysayers, but I also agree a bit with the believers. I completely understand Chris' reasons for what he says, and I also agree with keeping pure. I currently have a beautiful WC pair of CR Dovii, and never think of spawning with either one of them a Dovii from a different local. But saying that, I am also growing out a group of a dozen WC Festae from various locals and plan on pairing up the best looking male and female. As for the Devils/midas debate, I myself am doing my best at trying to breed true Devil strains and try and get some true Devils out there. (before you jump on me RD,
I know what you are going to say.) I am doing everything I can to learn, research, and produce a true DevilRegarding the discussion, I guess I am on the fence, which explains why I have not got involved. But from reading it all, it sounds like now, just bickering over the same debate and nobody is budging and the discussion is going nowhere. JMO.
BUT, I will say this, Modest-man when I read your original post. I as an outsider could tell that what you said was meant one way and one way only. As a personal jab. If I am wrong, I apologize, but it looked pretty obvious.
whewwwwwww, right over your head. If it something you've see before please let us know the correct name till then it is undiclosed and can be called w/e the collector choosed to call it. As far as status symbol, since they will be readily available to all hobbyist I guess that all means we have the opportunity to be on the same status
Speaking for myself, my comments in this discussion have nothing to do with being a naysayer. Clearly there are those that do not understand, or simly don't care about the potential long term ramifications of intraspecific hybrids in this hobby. Which is fine by me, just don't attempt to tell me that a blue umbee, is a blue umbee, is a blue umbee, unless you have something more than a personal opinion to back those kind of claims up. Even the King himself has stated that his location Z has a different physical profile (more torpedo shaped) compared to a Rio Mag umbee. What else is or isn't different between the various geographical locations??? -----> at this point nobody knows.
Doesn't sound to me like you are on the fence at all, Madness. It appears that when it suits your personal inclination you are pro intraspecific hybrids.
It's a slippery slope ........
Doesn't sound to me like you are on the fence at all, Madness. It appears that when it suits your personal inclination you are pro intraspecific hybrids.
It's a slippery slope ........
- Status
