I run my guys bioactive, but still you're doing most of the work yourself.
Fishguy's way reminds of how that MD fish tanks bloke does it with aquasoil.
Nitrates are good lmao
- Thread starter Joshuakahan
- Start date
Fishguy's way reminds of how that MD fish tanks bloke does it with aquasoil.
I’ve never tried a bioactive, I just change the substrate every so often, but I’m thinking about it with my lacerta
There are valid points from this father fish guy. I don't tend to watch him or follow simply because it only work with certain environmental factors, like said by
duanes
and others. Diggers and large fish will destroy this type of set up.
A long time ago I kept reef tanks and I did a lot of what is now becoming popular (well technically it was popular already but not really pointed out). The micro fauna on the live rock and live sand helped keep balance. All the little critters are important to that balance. I've been looking into getting back into salt recently and I see respected companies and people talking more in depth about why using some form of live rock/substrate is very beneficial to the ecosystem (they are actually calling it that now). Will you introduce pests, nuisance algaes? yes that's what some of the most beneficial micro fauna lives off of. When I set up my 120 I went completely dry and dead stuff rock, sand all of it. I had nothing but issues for a good year and a half. I eventually plumbed everything together and within weeks my mature "infested" system fixed all the issues in that 120. Also during my time reefing I like most others strove for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. The closer I got the worse my corals looked. Even the holiest of corals that "had to have" 0/0 looked pale and sick. I backed off that plan and started letting the nitrate and phosphate creep up to the 20-30 and .2 to .3 ppt, everything blew up started growing and coloring up better then before. Like
Lepisosteus
said actually dosing n and p is a thing now. The now thought of ratio (yes there is even a ratio now) is p needs to be 10% of n, wow I did that without even knowing it.
Would I dirt a tank with most monster fish...no. it wouldn't work the dirt needs to be on the bottom not in the water column although the plants would also be in the water column so maybe
....
You know what works for rift cichlids, pothos, peace lily and a ton of rock with surface area that can accommodate anoxic bacteria that won't get smothered or bothered by the fish. My tang tank is a huge pile of lava rock with tons of caves and lots of surface area. Its been up for 8 months now and Ive done 4 water changes. 3 were in the first couple months. My nitrates haven't gone over 10 since October. I do believe that you need to refresh stuff in the tank and remove pollutants so I did a 50% on news years eve. I'll probably do another on Saturday. I may start to do it monthly just because. I still check nitrate but mostly I watch pH and alk if I see a significant drop in either I'll do a wc.
Does/will this work for everyone? No. There are other factors involved. I have around 25 fish in the tank so it's not lightly stocked I'd say a medium density for the size.
If you don't know about reef tanks will dosing nitrate and phosphate be a good idea probably not.
duanes
and others. Diggers and large fish will destroy this type of set up.A long time ago I kept reef tanks and I did a lot of what is now becoming popular (well technically it was popular already but not really pointed out). The micro fauna on the live rock and live sand helped keep balance. All the little critters are important to that balance. I've been looking into getting back into salt recently and I see respected companies and people talking more in depth about why using some form of live rock/substrate is very beneficial to the ecosystem (they are actually calling it that now). Will you introduce pests, nuisance algaes? yes that's what some of the most beneficial micro fauna lives off of. When I set up my 120 I went completely dry and dead stuff rock, sand all of it. I had nothing but issues for a good year and a half. I eventually plumbed everything together and within weeks my mature "infested" system fixed all the issues in that 120. Also during my time reefing I like most others strove for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. The closer I got the worse my corals looked. Even the holiest of corals that "had to have" 0/0 looked pale and sick. I backed off that plan and started letting the nitrate and phosphate creep up to the 20-30 and .2 to .3 ppt, everything blew up started growing and coloring up better then before. Like
Lepisosteus
said actually dosing n and p is a thing now. The now thought of ratio (yes there is even a ratio now) is p needs to be 10% of n, wow I did that without even knowing it.Would I dirt a tank with most monster fish...no. it wouldn't work the dirt needs to be on the bottom not in the water column although the plants would also be in the water column so maybe
....You know what works for rift cichlids, pothos, peace lily and a ton of rock with surface area that can accommodate anoxic bacteria that won't get smothered or bothered by the fish. My tang tank is a huge pile of lava rock with tons of caves and lots of surface area. Its been up for 8 months now and Ive done 4 water changes. 3 were in the first couple months. My nitrates haven't gone over 10 since October. I do believe that you need to refresh stuff in the tank and remove pollutants so I did a 50% on news years eve. I'll probably do another on Saturday. I may start to do it monthly just because. I still check nitrate but mostly I watch pH and alk if I see a significant drop in either I'll do a wc.
Does/will this work for everyone? No. There are other factors involved. I have around 25 fish in the tank so it's not lightly stocked I'd say a medium density for the size.
If you don't know about reef tanks will dosing nitrate and phosphate be a good idea probably not.
I loved mature and cured live rock from established systems when I was doing reefs. The more growth and critters the better was my philosophy…except aptasia lolThere are valid points from this father fish guy. I don't tend to watch him or follow simply because it only work with certain environmental factors, like said by
A long time ago I kept reef tanks and I did a lot of what is now becoming popular (well technically it was popular already but not really pointed out). The micro fauna on the live rock and live sand helped keep balance. All the little critters are important to that balance. I've been looking into getting back into salt recently and I see respected companies and people talking more in depth about why using some form of live rock/substrate is very beneficial to the ecosystem (they are actually calling it that now). Will you introduce pests, nuisance algaes? yes that's what some of the most beneficial micro fauna lives off of. When I set up my 120 I went completely dry and dead stuff rock, sand all of it. I had nothing but issues for a good year and a half. I eventually plumbed everything together and within weeks my mature "infested" system fixed all the issues in that 120. Also during my time reefing I like most others strove for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. The closer I got the worse my corals looked. Even the holiest of corals that "had to have" 0/0 looked pale and sick. I backed off that plan and started letting the nitrate and phosphate creep up to the 20-30 and .2 to .3 ppt, everything blew up started growing and coloring up better then before. Like
Would I dirt a tank with most monster fish...no. it wouldn't work the dirt needs to be on the bottom not in the water column although the plants would also be in the water column so maybe
You know what works for rift cichlids, pothos, peace lily and a ton of rock with surface area that can accommodate anoxic bacteria that won't get smothered or bothered by the fish. My tang tank is a huge pile of lava rock with tons of caves and lots of surface area. Its been up for 8 months now and Ive done 4 water changes. 3 were in the first couple months. My nitrates haven't gone over 10 since October. I do believe that you need to refresh stuff in the tank and remove pollutants so I did a 50% on news years eve. I'll probably do another on Saturday. I may start to do it monthly just because. I still check nitrate but mostly I watch pH and alk if I see a significant drop in either I'll do a wc.
Does/will this work for everyone? No. There are other factors involved. I have around 25 fish in the tank so it's not lightly stocked I'd say a medium density for the size.
If you don't know about reef tanks will dosing nitrate and phosphate be a good idea probably not.
Nailed it. Known as the Redfield ratio. I believe it’s 16:1 thoughThere are valid points from this father fish guy. I don't tend to watch him or follow simply because it only work with certain environmental factors, like said by
A long time ago I kept reef tanks and I did a lot of what is now becoming popular (well technically it was popular already but not really pointed out). The micro fauna on the live rock and live sand helped keep balance. All the little critters are important to that balance. I've been looking into getting back into salt recently and I see respected companies and people talking more in depth about why using some form of live rock/substrate is very beneficial to the ecosystem (they are actually calling it that now). Will you introduce pests, nuisance algaes? yes that's what some of the most beneficial micro fauna lives off of. When I set up my 120 I went completely dry and dead stuff rock, sand all of it. I had nothing but issues for a good year and a half. I eventually plumbed everything together and within weeks my mature "infested" system fixed all the issues in that 120. Also during my time reefing I like most others strove for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. The closer I got the worse my corals looked. Even the holiest of corals that "had to have" 0/0 looked pale and sick. I backed off that plan and started letting the nitrate and phosphate creep up to the 20-30 and .2 to .3 ppt, everything blew up started growing and coloring up better then before. Like
Would I dirt a tank with most monster fish...no. it wouldn't work the dirt needs to be on the bottom not in the water column although the plants would also be in the water column so maybe
You know what works for rift cichlids, pothos, peace lily and a ton of rock with surface area that can accommodate anoxic bacteria that won't get smothered or bothered by the fish. My tang tank is a huge pile of lava rock with tons of caves and lots of surface area. Its been up for 8 months now and Ive done 4 water changes. 3 were in the first couple months. My nitrates haven't gone over 10 since October. I do believe that you need to refresh stuff in the tank and remove pollutants so I did a 50% on news years eve. I'll probably do another on Saturday. I may start to do it monthly just because. I still check nitrate but mostly I watch pH and alk if I see a significant drop in either I'll do a wc.
Does/will this work for everyone? No. There are other factors involved. I have around 25 fish in the tank so it's not lightly stocked I'd say a medium density for the size.
If you don't know about reef tanks will dosing nitrate and phosphate be a good idea probably not.
I run most of my tanks basic, sponge filter, bare bottom, maybe some java fern. Works great for raising rainbows, danios and more.
However, my display tanks, I keep heavily planted, both in the tank and out of it, and story lightly.
Take my 4ft 110g. Stocking is about 15-20 juvenile crimson spotted rainbows and one young Black eel tailed catfish. I have a thick substrate of sand, lots of driftwood. Lots of surface area for bacteria. Then I have as much Val that I can (I’m planning to add some swords, just waiting on availability) toms of Anubias and Java fern. Then I have large pothos vines, monsteras, philodendrons and iris growing out of the top. Then I have two XL sponge filters, a 1.25 litre bottle filled with marine pure, and a large canister. Nitrates are just under 10. I haven’t done a water change in 4 months.
Then I have my tanks which are so densely planted, the small filters have such little effect. I have a 30g tank with two western Pygmy perch, and one young platy. Incredibly densely planted with Val, Ludwigia, hornwort, java moss and wisteria. Nitrates are barely registrable.
My most recent tank is a 10g, that is pretty heavily stocked, but planted well, with a literal garden growing out the top (I’ve been harvesting basil and water celery like crazy). Nitrates are again ~10.
However, my display tanks, I keep heavily planted, both in the tank and out of it, and story lightly.
Take my 4ft 110g. Stocking is about 15-20 juvenile crimson spotted rainbows and one young Black eel tailed catfish. I have a thick substrate of sand, lots of driftwood. Lots of surface area for bacteria. Then I have as much Val that I can (I’m planning to add some swords, just waiting on availability) toms of Anubias and Java fern. Then I have large pothos vines, monsteras, philodendrons and iris growing out of the top. Then I have two XL sponge filters, a 1.25 litre bottle filled with marine pure, and a large canister. Nitrates are just under 10. I haven’t done a water change in 4 months.
Then I have my tanks which are so densely planted, the small filters have such little effect. I have a 30g tank with two western Pygmy perch, and one young platy. Incredibly densely planted with Val, Ludwigia, hornwort, java moss and wisteria. Nitrates are barely registrable.
My most recent tank is a 10g, that is pretty heavily stocked, but planted well, with a literal garden growing out the top (I’ve been harvesting basil and water celery like crazy). Nitrates are again ~10.
It sure does depend upon the tank. The typical MFK fishkeeper wants a bioload about 100x greater than a FF tank...which I think of as a F'd-up tank...so if a beginner who has another thread asking how many Oscars he can jam into his 55-gallon tank without upsetting his Arowana too much thinks he is going to get away with this holistic crap, he will be in for a sad surprise. Nevertheless, the F-Father doesn't really address this issue...largely because it is an "inconvenient truth" which makes his pronouncements seem less like commandments engraved on stone, and more like obscure goofy ideas that are of very limited usefulness to most people,
And, as stated above, the whole dirted-tank trust-in-Gaea approach also demands the fish to be not only scarce, but small and not too rambunctious as well. No Geos digging up the substrate, no Oscars doing daily re-landscaping, and certainly nothing much more than a couple inches long in a typical small-to-medium tank...but the F-Father fails to mention that as well...
You guys are comparing this to your "bio-active" reptile enclosures. Maybe that's a valid comparison, I don't know...but I'd bet folding money that when you are keeping 10-15 foot pythons or adult Water Monitors, you don't suggest relying upon a hoard of microscopic isopods to take care of those cow-pie size turds when they appear. Those big reptiles are the equivalent of the Dovii and Arapaimas and Redtail Cats in the aquarium hobby...which are the bread-and-butter of this forum, but completely ignored by the F-Father.
To be fair, I will say that I have utilized naturally-collected, bug-laden substrate material...leaf litter, mud, "mulm", basically the squishy stuff at the bottom of a pond...in tanks for many years, usually to provide an initial food source for newly-hatched fry. I'm not talking about a six-inch-deep layer, rather just a couple handfuls at most; the stuff is loaded with an assortment of near-microscopic critters that provide a great first-food for egg-layer fry. This will likely horrify the folks who spend time boiling rocks, sterilizing driftwood and sanitizing everything in sight, but it's been working out fine for me for a few decades. It's not terribly different than culturing infusoria or green water for the same purpose. I source the stuff from wood land ponds which are devoid of fish, which I suspect goes a long way towards keeping it free from many or most fish pathogens.
I'm also wondering about another aspect of many of the F-Father's tanks. He claims that the serene, quiet, plant-laden tanks that he shows off are ecologically-balanced and take care of themselves. I can't help but think that what they actually are doing is slowly and steadily degrading and turning into cesspools of toxic filth...but by keeping the stocking extremely low, he slows this degradation down to the point where one of his acolytes will likely lose interest after a year or so, before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
Nitrates? Where in nature do you find fish living in water with 500 or 200 or even 20 ppm of nitrates? Yet, despite preaching the nature-is-best doctrine like some Druid priest, he casually tells you that those numbers are okay! Why does he do that? Well, it's obvious why: because he has to! When you try something new and stupid, and it doesn't work out at all, you have two choices: you either admit failure and shut up...which, of course, doesn't bode well for your YouTube numbers...or you pretend to snatch genius from the jaws of stupidity and just continue to drone on about the fact that everything's okay, ignore those numbers, you'll be fine, just keep watching my videos, blah, blah, blah...
Pretty obvious which route the F-Father has taken.
And, as stated above, the whole dirted-tank trust-in-Gaea approach also demands the fish to be not only scarce, but small and not too rambunctious as well. No Geos digging up the substrate, no Oscars doing daily re-landscaping, and certainly nothing much more than a couple inches long in a typical small-to-medium tank...but the F-Father fails to mention that as well...
You guys are comparing this to your "bio-active" reptile enclosures. Maybe that's a valid comparison, I don't know...but I'd bet folding money that when you are keeping 10-15 foot pythons or adult Water Monitors, you don't suggest relying upon a hoard of microscopic isopods to take care of those cow-pie size turds when they appear. Those big reptiles are the equivalent of the Dovii and Arapaimas and Redtail Cats in the aquarium hobby...which are the bread-and-butter of this forum, but completely ignored by the F-Father.
To be fair, I will say that I have utilized naturally-collected, bug-laden substrate material...leaf litter, mud, "mulm", basically the squishy stuff at the bottom of a pond...in tanks for many years, usually to provide an initial food source for newly-hatched fry. I'm not talking about a six-inch-deep layer, rather just a couple handfuls at most; the stuff is loaded with an assortment of near-microscopic critters that provide a great first-food for egg-layer fry. This will likely horrify the folks who spend time boiling rocks, sterilizing driftwood and sanitizing everything in sight, but it's been working out fine for me for a few decades. It's not terribly different than culturing infusoria or green water for the same purpose. I source the stuff from wood land ponds which are devoid of fish, which I suspect goes a long way towards keeping it free from many or most fish pathogens.
I'm also wondering about another aspect of many of the F-Father's tanks. He claims that the serene, quiet, plant-laden tanks that he shows off are ecologically-balanced and take care of themselves. I can't help but think that what they actually are doing is slowly and steadily degrading and turning into cesspools of toxic filth...but by keeping the stocking extremely low, he slows this degradation down to the point where one of his acolytes will likely lose interest after a year or so, before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
Nitrates? Where in nature do you find fish living in water with 500 or 200 or even 20 ppm of nitrates? Yet, despite preaching the nature-is-best doctrine like some Druid priest, he casually tells you that those numbers are okay! Why does he do that? Well, it's obvious why: because he has to! When you try something new and stupid, and it doesn't work out at all, you have two choices: you either admit failure and shut up...which, of course, doesn't bode well for your YouTube numbers...or you pretend to snatch genius from the jaws of stupidity and just continue to drone on about the fact that everything's okay, ignore those numbers, you'll be fine, just keep watching my videos, blah, blah, blah...
Pretty obvious which route the F-Father has taken.
Above is a very important point.
I spent about 20 years are a chemist/microbiologist at a drinking water production facility, and had to measure the nitrate concentration of our incoming raw water (from Lake Michigan) daily.
At no time did nitrate reading ever exceed 2 ppm.
I have also traveled extensively over Central and S America, where I measure water parameters, and wherever I go , have i ever have I detected a nitrate level above 5ppm, except near plantations where heavy fertilization was used, and the water near the plantation was usually a dead zone, as far a fish were concerned.
In nature, aquatic and terrestrial vegetation near water uses natural nitrate as fast as it is produced.
Above a tributary of the Magdalena river in Colombia,
below Lake Gatun in Panama.
Even in shallow ox bow, or swamp like areas is nitrate high, because plants suck nitrate up, as fast as it it produced
