Official 2011-2012 NFL Thread

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"personally i can't wait to see your redskins who haven't played squat yet come back down to earth. you're giddy after 2 weeks but shooting down people predicting the colt's fate after 2 weeks? please tell me what team right now looks like it'll end up with a worse record"
you said they would lose,so maybe you shouldn't take things so"personally"because obviously they are much improved,which you didn't know.btw-the colts sucked before peyton went down,but you guys are talking next year and drafts in week 2.
Once agin-did anyone SEE the hit on Ryan sunday night?Or to be rude,did anyone here actually WATCH that game?

how is 10-6 and winning the division every year and being competitive in the playoff every year "sucks with peyton"? are we watching the same nfl. clearly you've got some major hatred toward the colts. you recall the superbowl champs records last year right? 10-6.

ps, i don't think washington is much improved, i still think they'll finish last in that division but all we can do is wait and see. it's not like they weren't competitive last year.
 
eh, i'm no football consultant, i'm not giving advice, just a personal opinion, we're all free to have them. i'm just going to politely disagree with jason_s reading of the colt's situation. i feel strongly that if you have the opportunity to take luck, you take him and nothing anyone can say will change my mind about it and i'm sure nothing anyone says will make him change his mind either.


yes i watched the falcons philly's game...i don't care about ryan's hit and doing the split. it didn't make me think any differently of him. i think he's a top 8 QB in the league and could care less if he's tough or not

I can completely respect that. I just want to counter with a couple more points that may give a little more insight into why I feel the way I do:

1) The only reasons Luck is regarded more highly than the other top prospects are that he runs a pro-style offense and his mechanics and technique are, for the most part, more polished. This puts him in the best situation to be able to start from day 1 in the NFL. Assuming Peyton does come back and is not forced to retire, the slight issues with mechanics, footwork etc that other players have can easily be coached out of them (see Aaron Rodgers for just one example...if Rodgers had been as polished as Luck he would have been a top 5 pick and a starter from day 1. However he wasn't and that's why the Packers were able to get him at the end of the first round. There is no reason to believe that his natural talent and ability is higher than the other top rated prospects....he is simply more polished.

2) Peyton Manning intentionally took less money than he otherwise could have had with his new contract. He did this to give the front office more leverage to resign key players at the end of the year and to have the flexibility to bring in FA's if there were any available who could make a significant, immediate impact. IMO it would be a slap in his face to turn around and spend that money on the guy who will only see the field when Peyton no longer can. We can just as easily trade pack and receive probably unprecedented compensation due to the fact that it's Andrew Luck and the hype around him is incredible. Look at what the Falcons gave up to move up for Julio Jones. Or a few years back when the Browns moved up to take Brady Quinn. Also remember that the Browns have 2 first round picks this coming draft. I'd have a hard time believing they wouldn't package those together as well as who knows what else for a prospect like Luck. I don't believe they are so committed to Colt McCoy (who was drafted in the 3rd round to be brought in as a project...not a day 1 starter).

3) I've watched games on each of the top rated QB's with a couple of exceptions, and so far I've been most impressed with Nick Foles. Yes, Arizona runs a spread offense so one could argue his numbers are inflated because of this. However, he also has absolutely no running game to rely on. Arizona so far is averaging less than 60 yards rushing per game. The majority of their offense comes on the arm of Nick Foles and even considering that he's still completing over 75% of his passes.

4) Finally, I'm going to say it....I think Andrew Luck is overrated. The experts like to say that QB's from spread offenses are products of their system. I would counter that the same can be said of Luck. Stanford runs a very effective power running game and they have a couple of excellent TE's that are in the mold of a Jason Whitten. They're big, strong, great blockers but also excellent receivers. A lot of Luck's success is based off of using big, power formations with multiple backs and TE's, establishing the run and then torching the defense with play action. Several of his passes were completed for huge gains because the defense sold all out on the PA fake and a TE was left wide open running a long post route. Luck also has the benefit of a great offensive line. However when there is pressure, Luck looks average (don't get me wrong, I know this is true of most QB's). He does have good pocket awareness but still makes questionable throws and often underthrows because he throws off his back foot in those situations.

In the end, I'm certainly not saying Luck will be a bust. However the fact remains that a large amount of the hype around him is how ready he is to start from day 1 and not due to him simply more natural talent than the other top rated QB prospects. He's simply been better coached up to this point in his career. Unless Manning retires, we don't need him to start from day 1. We can just as easily take one of the other QB's who have just as much natural talent as Luck and simply coach and mentor them to get rid of the minor issues with mechanics and/or footwork.
 
why do you insist that Luck needs to start right away? gone are the day that we pay the first round draft pick 78 million. that's what sam bradford got last year, newton got 21 mil. why can't luck just ride the pine for 21 mil?

you'd possible be getting the QB of the future for only 5 mil a year and a viable back up for 5 mil a year. heck, you're paying collins 4 mil a year!
 
why do you insist that Luck needs to start right away? gone are the day that we pay the first round draft pick 78 million. that's what sam bradford got last year, newton got 21 mil. why can't luck just ride the pine for 21 mil?

you'd possible be getting the QB of the future for only 5 mil a year and a viable back up for 5 mil a year. heck, you're paying collins 4 mil a year!

I'm not saying Luck has to start right away. However all of the hype around him is based on the fact that he's ready to start right away. There's nothing that indicates he is naturally more gifted or talented than the other top prospects. He's simply been better coached to this point and he's been in a pro-style offense so he's ready to start from day 1. And that alone is the reason he's considered to be the #1 draft choice, not because he's going to be better, but because he can start right away. Since the Colts likely won't need him to start right away, we can easily take a look at the other top prospects, find the one that has the best talent and ability and coach him up on the things that need improving. So, we can trade down in the first round and acquire several additional picks...based on what Atlanta gave up to move up for Julio Jones, there's no telling what a team like would give up for Luck, and the price they would pay only goes up the more hype he gets.

And aside from that I still don't think he's a good fit for the Colts system. Yes we're trying to change the identity of the team and become more balanced....but that's the thing, they're trying to get to a point where the can be balanced, but we're never going to be a power running team like, for example, Pittsburgh. I think we'd actually be better off looking at a guy who comes from more of a spread style offense. Nick Foles or Landry Jones seem like the best fit imo.

Oh and the Collins thing was due to an extreme situation and I'd be very surprised if he stays on the roster next season. He was brought in and paid that much when it was looking like Manning would only miss the first couple of games. I'm not so sure they'd have done the same thing if they knew then of the odds that Manning will miss the entire season. :)
 
why does a better prospect in a pro style offense not equate to a better QB in a spread style offense (think packers or saints) in the nfl? you're penalizing him because of the style of play his college team has? he can't control that

i get your way of thinking, you're concerned about now where as i'm looking at securing the colt's long term future. if the colts DO end up with the #1 pick, it'll be interesting to see what they do. To me, i doubt they can convince the fan base that it's a good idea to pass up such a highly touted prospect after seeing the disaster that is this year. 5 mil a year for luck is nothing compared to paying collins 4 mil for 3 games as the original plan.

however, you're actually a fan of the team and probably have a better gauge of what other fans of the team think
 
why does a better prospect in a pro style offense not equate to a better QB in a spread style offense (think packers or saints) in the nfl? you're penalizing him because of the style of play his college team has? he can't control that

i get your way of thinking, you're concerned about now where as i'm looking at securing the colt's long term future. if the colts DO end up with the #1 pick, it'll be interesting to see what they do. To me, i doubt they can convince the fan base that it's a good idea to pass up such a highly touted prospect after seeing the disaster that is this year. 5 mil a year for luck is nothing compared to paying collins 4 mil for 3 games as the original plan.

however, you're actually a fan of the team and probably have a better gauge of what other fans of the team think

I'm not penalizing him for it...I'm just not going to hail him as the QB messiah like some (not saying you) are.

And you're absolutely right about the fan base....I'd say the 95% is pretty accurate. I'm definitely in the minority on the colts forum in this. lol

I also think that if Polian and Irsay were truly interested in Luck then we wouldn't know anything about it. Irsay is a nut sometimes...in that fun, loveable kind of way. Many people call him the modern day Willy Wonka. His tween in the preseason about being on his way to Favre's house is a perfect example. And how we're hearing about Polian going to a Stanford game. I really think that if they were truly interested then they'd be much more discreet about it. Plus if you think about it, if they, like me, believe that trading down is the smarter thing to do..then what would be the best thing to do in the mean time? Do little things here and there, like making sure the press got wind that he was going to the Stanford game, to make it look like you're pursuing Luck. That might help drive the price up for when the draft comes around. Now teams think they really want Luck so they're going to have to pay that much more to get him.

I'm totally speculating here and could be way off base...but I think there's some merit to it. :) lol
 
why does a better prospect in a pro style offense not equate to a better QB in a spread style offense (think packers or saints) in the nfl? you're penalizing him because of the style of play his college team has? he can't control that
other fans of the team think

Also, just wanted to clarify here, I'm not saying that Luck couldn't equate to a spread style QB too. I'm looking at it this way....you always hear people talk about a certain QB who is good but you always felt could have had more success. Perfect example is Dan Marino. He was easily one of the greatest of all time but you always wonder....how much more success could he have had with a better defense, or a better receiving corp or a more effective running game. Well you can't ask those questions about Luck because he already has those things. You know what you're getting with him and that's not a bad thing...there's obviously very minimal risk but I don't think there's as high a reward if you compare to a guy like Foles who is able to get the job done with no running game and only adequate pass blocking. So Luck is definitely lower risk but a lower ceiling, imo. Foles obviously is more of a risk but I think the upside is much greater.

Just the way I look at it. :)
 
AHHHHHH IM SO FRICKIN PUMPED. EAGLES ARE GOING DOWN. I HOPE MIKE VICK PLAYS SO I CAN WATCH HIM GET SMASHED TO THE TURF BY TUCK AND JPP. BBBBRRRRIIINNNGGG IIIITTTT!
 
haha, good luck bro, i hear the trash talk and think the giant's kicked the hornet's nest. Andy reid will pull out all the stops for this one. the only thing i'll gurantee about that game is eli will throw 2 picks (or throw a pick and have a fumble)
 
Also, just wanted to clarify here, I'm not saying that Luck couldn't equate to a spread style QB too. I'm looking at it this way....you always hear people talk about a certain QB who is good but you always felt could have had more success. Perfect example is Dan Marino. He was easily one of the greatest of all time but you always wonder....how much more success could he have had with a better defense, or a better receiving corp or a more effective running game. Well you can't ask those questions about Luck because he already has those things. You know what you're getting with him and that's not a bad thing...there's obviously very minimal risk but I don't think there's as high a reward if you compare to a guy like Foles who is able to get the job done with no running game and only adequate pass blocking. So Luck is definitely lower risk but a lower ceiling, imo. Foles obviously is more of a risk but I think the upside is much greater.

Just the way I look at it. :)

i agree with most of your last 2 post but i 100 percent disagree with the bolded part. the best looking college prospect in the last 30 years has to have more potentials and upside then some kid running a spread offense. people who have run the spread offense in college have struggled mightily to make the jump from college to the pros.
 
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