Overcrowding

[terd ferguson]

Good post Terd.

Perhaps it is the term "overcrowding" that is misleading. Provided there is plenty of space for all, the presence of lots of fish will certainly make it tough for one fish to be singled out. In fact, I had a breeding pair of dovii (with an 18"+ male) breed in a 1500 gallon pond without any injurious aggression to the other fish in the pond. Those other fish varied from 5" to over a foot (and had their own fry too). But again, that was in 1500 gallons. Attempting to do anything similar in a 125 or 180 is just futile.

Really, there is no reason to have all these giant fish if one doesn't also have giant room. There is a suitable substitute for almost every giant species. For instance, a grammodes is practically the same thing as a dovii, only in a much smaller package.

There's another aspect that I touched on that hasn't been discussed. That is that some species are simply incompatible. For instance, Tiger Shovelnose Catfish are incompatible with anything that will fit in their mouth. No matter how much you feed them, they WILL eat tankmates that can fit in their mouth. This goes back to intelligent, thoughtful species selection when thinking about a community setting. A responsible hobbyist like me has to come to the realization that no matter how awesome that maniac red devil is down at my LFS, no matter how much I've always admired others' RD's and how long I've wanted one, no matter how good a deal it can be had for, no matter "fill in the blank" - I can't have it if I want to keep the relative peace and calm I now have and enjoy. Some species are just not a good fit in a community setting. Again, there is a difference between "aggressive" and "territorial".

Besides eating tankmates, some fish are notoriously murderous. The dovii immediately comes to mind. This is where specimen selection comes into play. Each individual fish has his/her own individual personality even when they are of the same species. Out of a tank full of dovii fry, there will be a tiny percentage that will accept tankmates. The hard part is figuring out which one. When buying from an LFS or breeder, one has to do a lot more thinking than simply picking out the biggest, bestest male. I typically spend at least a half an hour just watching behavior and atitude when picking out a single specimen out of a tank full. The king of the tank is never the best decision for a community fish. Community keepers have different requirements of their fishes than sole specimen keepers. They are both buying the best personality for their particular situation. A sole specimen keeper can get away with the craziest, biggest, glass banginest, maniac he can find for sale. I can't.

These things I've touched on are a tiny percentage of the planning and execution it takes to make something like this work. And I haven't even gotten into each and every water parameter you can control and how to manipulate those in a positive way for the fishes' health and happiness, amount and frequency and types of feeding (I feed alot with a large variety including live), filtration (I use many types, some are redundant but still have a purpose), methods and equipment to reduce the chances of introduction of deseases, decorations (rocks, wood, & pots) for territory and a comfortable enviornment, plants, et cetera. I could go on and on. Like I said, it's a lot of planning and a lot of work. But well worth it should one be willing.

Just remember, all the planning in the world doesn't guarantee success. I can't say this enough. I've seen enough disasters that have happened to folks much smarter than me to know it's still a gamble. But it is possible.

 

[zorba4884]

IM on the fence but TED FERG has proof

 

[cichlidfish]

Terd I agree 100%. My texas is a perfect example. I bought her a long time ago, when I didn't know as much as I do now. When she was at the LFS, she was attacking all of the other texas in the tank. My mistake was thinking she was healthy, and a strong fish. She was super dominant and aggressive. I can't keep her w/ any other cichlid no matter how many or how big the tank is. She doesn't just gill flare or jaw lock. She goes right for the belly or gills trying to ellimniate her tank mate.
In the future I will watch the fish for awhile before I buy it, and keep aggressive specieces away from non aggressive specieces. I know this doesn't guarentee success, but it increases the chances.
The over crowding seems best for African cichlids, but from what I have heard (never kept them) it doesn't always work.
One difference between African and CA/SA cichlids is how they live in the wild. After seeing many nature shows and reading, Africans live in close colonies, where CA/SA are spread out. That is the difference IMO.

 

[Otherone]

My $.02 ...............overcrowding africans yes; works under the diffuser rule, give them more then one target they won't pick on just one fish til' death.

South Americans yes as juveniles.........in my tanks the juve' SA's tend to hide til' they reach a comfortable size which depends on their tankmates sizes and temperments. Nobody wants a big tank with no swimming fish so stackin' the deck moves the fish around. Ie; the untilmate goal is to have a large Green terror in say 55 gal. The GT by himself takes a year to mass. I'll throw in a bunch of throw aways cheap SA's I could care less if they live: ie; Firemouths, convicts, Acras etc...
Keeps the tank interesting til' lil' Green is Big Mean Green.........he'll kill off the competition.

Teenage and Adult SA's I'm not gonna say indisputibly NO cause anythings possible.
It hasn't worked for me due to several factors, foremost being fish don't grow at the same rate - period. I've had festae F's outgrow seemingly larger and faster growing M's almost overnight....result Dead male. I've also noted that fish from the same regions hate each other ... My Red terrors always kill the Green Terrors 1st ( yes I've tried several times ) perhaps because thier both from Equador-Peru. Yet I can get a Green Texas, Salvini's, and Dovii to live in peace - All from different regions. Another issue seems to be same Genius - ie; Cichlasoma ...Salvini's hate Red Terrors and kill'm relentessly even at a smaller size yet both are from 2 different regions. Another example was Aequidens..
Green Terrors fert the eggs of the Blue Acaras then kill'em.

Same species tanks work for me ie; My Red terrors 3 males 5 females in one year only one death and that was when they where all but fry.

 

[oscarcrazy]

Overcrowding will in many cases lead to overstocking, which has its own set of problems. But aside from that, as long as you plan your tank well and as turd said, don't just dump the baddest fish you can find in the tank, then it is possible that things will work out. One thing to realize is that we do not recreate nature in our tanks because in nature a fish can swim away.

 

[cchhcc]

One thing to realize is that we do not recreate nature in our tanks because in nature a fish can swim away.

In a big enough tank they can do the same!

 

[Allan01230]

Overcrowding--- a great recipe for HITH desease and ick to set in. Not to mention slower growth.

 

[TrikkyMakk]

Overcrowding--- a great recipe for HITH desease and ick to set in. Not to mention slower growth.

This is a good point.

 

[gootswa]

Altough my sunfish is not a cichlid, as I got more fish it got way less agressive, not sure if this helps or not

 

[terd ferguson]

Overcrowding--- a great recipe for HITH desease and ick to set in. Not to mention slower growth.

None of my fishes have HITH or ick. It's all part of the planning. I use a giant 36 watt Coralife UV Sterilizer with a 900 gph pump to stave off diseases. Large frequent water changes along with constant testing of the water parameters ensure there is no HITH. For instance, I do 75% water changes every Sunday. Is it a pain in the butt to change 300 gallons a week with a python? You bet. Is it neccessary? Definately. I've never had a problem with HITH. Almost any problem you can come up with can be overcome with careful planning. If you slack off on your responsibilities as a keeper, you will have problems. The problems only come faster with heavier stocking. The only variable you can't totally control is the fishes' personality. And the keeper still has a hand in this area with careful selection.

With an overstocked tank, there is less room for error. But that doesn't mean it's a disaster waiting to happen as long as you do what you're supposed to. Planning, planning, planning. Manipulate the variables and all that. Etc. The more you can eliminate or lessen the chances of problems through careful planning, equipment selection, and fish selection, the better chances you will have to succeed. You can't overlook anything if you want to set yourself up with the best possible chance at success.