Overcrowding

[Mad About Cichlids]

Depends on some fishes.

I have seen same species tank that were overcrowded but the fishes still fight constantly.

From my experience overcrowding works in the long run as they all will eventually develope hierarchy but will run risk of losing a few when first introduced.

 

[cchhcc]

I can't reply to the poll without the "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" option.

; )

 

[all_or_nothin]

i think it does becuase they get competitive over food and territories but theres better ways to make them aggresive

 

[VRWC]

all of you with your long winded arguments are just further proving your ignorance by trying to justify yourselves. a simple, "i disagree" is all you need to save yourself from the embarrassment. lucky for you, i have decided not to continue this ridiculous coversation about something you know nothing about. you seem to be too stubborn or ignorant to want to learn, (you make that call, its not up to me). its not helpful to the OP if you havnt done it , but still feel the need to open your mouth on the subject.

wow. long winded arguments? This is a forum used to discuss fish and requires long winded explanations of experiences and situations. What did you expect? A one word answer?

If it were a face to face discussion and you had that attitude (which id bet $100 you wouldnt), you wouldnt have had the chance to make it past your 2nd post...most would have walked away or worse...

The poll was insufficient at best, not giving enough options to choose from, so Id say the responses are inconclusive.

 

[professa19]

heres one of mine. most people believe thiese guys can not be kept together, but its absolutely possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3GijIWyiN8

VERY nice cichlids man...love the festaes, red devils, and the dovii!

 

[terd ferguson]

The poll was insufficient at best, not giving enough options to choose from, so Id say the responses are inconclusive.

LOLZ, how did I ever miss this bickering jibber jabber.

Anyone who has seen any of my threads would find it hard to argue that "overcrowding" can work. 90% my fishes are adults. The rest are close enough to be able to murder tankmates if they wanted to. You can see my sig line for stocking (there used to be 2 adult GT's and 2 big TSN's. I moved these to make room for a pair of dovii). As far as overcorwiding not being a healthy environment, I'd disagree here as well. Three breeding pair of full grown adult Parachromis and a pair of full grown breeding Oscars would also disagree. My fishes aren't stunted, don't have torn up fins, facial scars, wounds, et cetera. In fact, I often have two generations of fry at the same time from the loisellis. To go further, I have fry in the tank today that hatched in September '08.

Now, with that said, it takes an enormous amount of planning and constant effort to make this kind of tank work. And I won't even mention the funds required to do it right. Suffice it to say it's a lot. But it can work. It has for me anyway. I believe you must examine each and every variable and manipulate these to work for you rather than against you. To explain how I go about this would take more than a post or two. The simple answer is I keep my fishes "happy".

terdferguson ftw. /thread

I'd say this is pretty conclusive. The "overcrowding" theory has long been accepted in regards to keeping African cichlids. I really don't see how it's much different with the new world cichlids. Now, I know 29 people will say Central Americans are in no way like Africans. But there are many members here who would disagree, including me.

The bottom line is that it is possible to reduce nuisance aggression directed towards tankmates by "overcrowding". Besides, we're not really talking aggression, it's more a case of fishes being extremely territorial. If the fishes feel secure in as much that they have enough territory, they won't murder those nearby. Your job as an "overcrowder" is to make them feel secure and happy. If you fail in this area, you will fail at "overcrowding".

Here's what hasn't been mentioned so far that I find fascinating. That is the sheer enjoyment I get from seeing big guapotes interacting with other big guapotes. And I don't mean lip locking for 45 minutes. I mean spawning and caring for fry, mating displays, competing for food, et cetera. It is a truly awesome thing to get to watch every day. This makes all the hard work worth while.

 

[VRWC]

I'd say this is pretty conclusive. The "overcrowding" theory has long been accepted in regards to keeping African cichlids. I really don't see how it's much different with the new world cichlids. Now, I know 29 people will say Central Americans are in no way like Africans. But there are many members here who would disagree, including me.

The bottom line is that it is possible to reduce nuisance aggression directed towards tankmates by "overcrowding". Besides, we're not really talking aggression, it's more a case of fishes being extremely territorial. If the fishes feel secure in as much that they have enough territory, they won't murder those nearby. Your job as an "overcrowder" is to make them feel secure and happy. If you fail in this area, you will fail at "overcrowding".

Here's what hasn't been mentioned so far that I find fascinating. That is the sheer enjoyment I get from seeing big guapotes interacting with other big guapotes. And I don't mean lip locking for 45 minutes. I mean spawning and caring for fry, mating displays, competing for food, et cetera. It is a truly awesome thing to get to watch every day. This makes all the hard work worth while.

I didnt say the situation wasnt possible, merely stating his poll was inconclusive and the answers were too general (ex: I doubt you could put 15 dovii in a tank and expect it to work, or 1 dovii, 3 red terrors, 7 convicts, 5 eartheaters, 3 robertsoni and a chocolate...thats what I mean by "too general" because you know someone would read this topic and think that they could try it.) Theyd need to be of similar size & temperament etc.

A local shop near me has about 15 foot long+ sa/ca's in a 180 and he swears thats how he keeps the aggression down. I am just not too into seeing 15 fish crammed together in an "unnatural" setting. I like more realistic looking situations, which you seem to have done a good job with, judging from your pictures. I myself have a similar setup. That being said, you are 1 person out of how many on here that have tried it and have opposite experiences? Just because it works for 1 person doesnt solidify that it works 100% of the time to me. Trust me, I wish it did (especially in other aspects of life). It also sounds like you were willing to put way more effort, cashflow and time into it than others and maybe even myself.

Im with you on it though and trying it myself. I currently have 6 parachromis, 2 amphil & 1 Herichthys in a 280 (which I know isnt technically overstocked, but Im hoping by them all living together there will be less aggression towards each other) and its going ok for now, but they arent quite the sizes yours are. The trimac is the biggest *** of them all, being next to the smallest. I hope it works, but Im prepared to remove the trouble makers as they show themselves.

I too enjoy watching the cohabitation of them interacting and feeding...and territorial disputes. They each have their own little section of the tank and seem to enjoy it.

 

[cchhcc]

The reason overcrowding is possible and healthy with Africans is because that is the way they exist in the wild. The population densities are very high, yet the species have developed overlapping feeding techniques which eliminates much of the aggression between various species (to a significant degree at least). Even among different species of herbivores there is a high degree of feeding variability.

New world cichlid densities aren't as high. There may be as many fish in a given body of water, but they are spread out comparatively more as compared to rift lake Africans that are primarily focussed on the rocky outcroppings.

New world cichlids aren't as specialized in feeding as are Africans, and different new world species often breed in very similar manners. Competition for similar food sources and breeding territory makes inter and intra-specific competition higher with new worlds. Add to that their much larger sizes and it is very difficult to support any intentional overcrowding as anything but fallacious.

Conspecific aggression can be high in both types, but inter-specific aggression is lower among Africans in many cases, and the smaller size of the Africans makes it much easier to simulate natural conditions. The territorial boundaries of a demasoni can much more easily provided than that of a citrinellus. Interestingly, Midas cichlids outside of breeding can in fact be fairly sociable in the wild, but the volume of water needed to see that behavior is much greater than most will accept. Also, that they are in a constant desire to breed in captivity (due in part to the non-stop availability of food) makes their territoriality and related space requirements increase exponentially.

At the end of the day, it is an unfortunate fact the the vast majority of all fish are maintained in conditions that barely exceed survivable, and too many fishkeepers equate surviving with thriving. There are several examples on this and other sites of what is, IMO, cruel treatment.

 

[fishguts]

i think your completly wrong saying most mfkers keep fish barely surviving and not thriving. most of the fish i see on here are very happy and healthy looking fish. if a fish is stressed out they will let you know it.
very poor choice of words if you ask me.

 

[cchhcc]

i think your completly wrong saying most mfkers keep fish barely surviving and not thriving. most of the fish i see on here are very happy and healthy looking fish. if a fish is stressed out they will let you know it.
very poor choice of words if you ask me.

You have a right to your opinion, but I chose my words carefully and stand by them.

Once we start seeing most of the fish on this site grow to full size I'll start to change my mind. The hard truth is almost every monster fish in captivity will live a comparatively short life as a result of improper care and poor conditions.